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mastermindreader
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On 2012-07-08 16:22, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I don't think there really IS a good comparison, because I'm unaware of anything else that the government requires one to purchase.


You're referring to the federal government I presume, because car insurance (or proof of financial responsibility) is a required purchase in the States.

I emphasized the one percent who will be effected by the ACA penalty to counter the current talking point from the right that the Act raises everyone's taxes. It doesn't do that at all. And those who already have insurance as well as all small businesses who employ less than 50 people (over 90% of ALL small businesses) aren't affected at all.
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"I don't think there really IS a good comparison, because I'm unaware of anything else that the government requires one to purchase."

Really? I can think of all sorts of things. I don't know about your state, but the NY State Government requires me to have car insurance if I own a car. There are lots of other examples as well.
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On 2012-07-08 16:27, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-08 16:22, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I don't think there really IS a good comparison, because I'm unaware of anything else that the government requires one to purchase.


You're referring to the federal government I presume, because car insurance (or proof of financial responsibility) is a required purchase in the States.

I emphasized the one percent who will be effected by the ACA penalty to counter the current talking point from the right that the Act raises everyone's taxes. It doesn't do that at all. And those who already have insurance as well as all small businesses who employ less than 50 people (over 90% of ALL small businesses) aren't affected at all.


Car insurance is not a required purchase. It is required if one chooses to drive a car. Granted, that's most of us, but I personally know at least one adult (in his 50s) who doesn't have one, and has never had one. He relies on public transportation. In southern California, no less!
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-07-08 16:38, Slide wrote:
"I don't think there really IS a good comparison, because I'm unaware of anything else that the government requires one to purchase."

Really? I can think of all sorts of things. I don't know about your state, but the NY State Government requires me to have car insurance if I own a car. There are lots of other examples as well.


Give me another example that doesn't have an "If I..." attached to the end of it.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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The ACA requires me to have health "IF I" choose to seek medical care. I don't think the penalty applies if I just treat myself or decide to die and thus not cause anyone else to pay for my care.
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On 2012-07-08 16:50, mastermindreader wrote:
The ACA requires me to have health "IF I" choose to seek medical care. I don't think the penalty applies if I just treat myself or decide to die and thus not cause anyone else to pay for my care.


This is incorrect.
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"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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How is that incorrect? Where in the ACA am I required to provide proof of insurance UNLESS I actually choose to seek treatment? (Or am involuntarily taken for treatment)

Or is it a kind of "papers please" law that allows the feds to randomly stop me and and demand I provide proof of medical insurance?

It's the same as if I have a car in my garage and choose never to drive it. I would therefore never be in a position where I had to prove I had car insurance and, thus, wouldn't be penalized for not having it.
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No, it's more like if you drove the car without insurance and were never stopped and asked for proof of insurance.


Unless you're exempt from the Act for some reason, if you go a month without insurance, you're in violation of the Act, period, and you're subject to penalties (and also subject to interest and penalties on the penalties, if you don't pay them). The ACA requires you to have insurance, period. Not "if you choose to seek medical care."

This is the point of the individual mandate; they need money from the healthy people to pay for those who DO seek care. Or, in the words of the Act itself:

"...the requirement, together with the other provisions of this Act, will minimize this adverse selection and broaden the health insurance risk pool to include healthy individuals, which will lower health insurance premiums"


If you're saying, "They'll never catch me," that's a separate argument, but the requirements of the Act DON'T depend on whether or not you seek care.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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I never said, "If you don't catch me." I said, "If I never seek medical care."

Big difference.

For all practical purposes, if you never seek medical care you won't be penalized. Unless, of course, the ACA will require everyone who files a tax return to include affirmative proof of insurance. Is there a provision in the ACA that requires this?

Also, is it not a fact that the ACA specifically forbids the IRS from implementing criminal or civil proceedings to collect the penalty from anyone who does not buy insurance?
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If you don't have insurance for a month, you're subject to the penalty and required to disclose it on that year's tax return. So if you're saying, "How will they know?" you're essentially saying, "If they don't catch me." You're subject to the penalty if you don't have insurance, period. Regardless of whether you seek care. If you're subject to the penalty, you have an affirmative duty to report it on your tax return.

Tax returns will have to reflect proof of insurance beginning in 2016, I believe.

It is true that the IRS cannot implement criminal or civil proceedings to collect the penalty; however, they CAN deduct it from any refund you might have in future years, and they can get it through a lien on and sale of any property in which you have equity. Moreever, through either of these mechanisms, they can also recover interest and penalties on your failure to pay when it was due. So if you blow off $5,000 worth of penalties because they can't institute civil or criminal proceedings, you may end up paying $20,000 later, if you have a big refund, or sell your house.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Woland
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Whoa. You turn your back on NVMS for a moment, and discussions go off in so many interesting directions!

With respect to the "tax" - if he hadn't been able to call it a tax, Chief Justice Roberts would have voted to overturn the entire law.

With respect to the President's position, he ran in the primaries against Secretary of State Clinton, attacking her for a health plan because it had a penalty for non-participation.

With respect to medical care in general, the Institute of Medicine in the United States has estimated that 100,000 people die each year from medical mistakes. And there are only about 750,000 practicing doctors. (For comparison, there are about 1,000 accidental deaths from firearms in the United States annually, and about 300,000,000 firearms in private hands. What's more dangerous to have in the house: a gun or a doctor?)
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I think the "if I" applies other places as well. I don't need to pay the penalty "if I" am already covered under my parents insurance, "if I" am covered under my employers insurance, "if I" am on medicad and medicare. There is always an If I: If I own a house I am required to invest in my school district whether or not I have children. I'm required to purchase sewer service, I'm required to invest in police and fireman salaries. If I rent I don't have to purchase these things. If I want to get into manhattan I'm required to purchase entry from the government every time I want to enter.
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-07-08 17:44, Slide wrote:
I think the "if I" applies other places as well. I don't need to pay the penalty "if I" am already covered under my parents insurance, "if I" am covered under my employers insurance, "if I" am on medicad and medicare. There is always an If I: If I own a house I am required to invest in my school district whether or not I have children. I'm required to purchase sewer service, I'm required to invest in police and fireman salaries. If I rent I don't have to purchase these things. If I want to get into manhattan I'm required to purchase entry from the government every time I want to enter.


I don't think it's quite the same thing, because the healthcare ifs basically say, "You don't have to pay your share if someone else does," whereas in the homeowning example, you're just off the hook entirely if you rent.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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So no one is questioning, then, that the penalty or "tax," or whatever you want to call it, will only effect the one percent of the population who can afford insurance but simply choose not to get it?
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On 2012-07-08 17:57, mastermindreader wrote:
So no one is questioning, then, that the penalty or "tax," or whatever you want to call it, will only effect the one percent of the population who can afford insurance but simply choose not to get it?


I have no idea how many people can afford health insurance and will choose not to get it, and I don't believe anyone in the employ of the federal government (including but not limited to the President and your favorite five people in the CBO) does, either. I do believe it will be a fairly small number. However, I have read that the CBO estimates that in 2016, four million people will pay the penalty. http://lubbockonline.com/filed-online/20......x-return

I think the 1% figure is low; it's not clear to me whether you're referring to 1% of all Americans, or 1% of non-exempt Americans, but in either case, it seems that even the CBO is expecting a higher percentage.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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What does "afford" mean?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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From This week's Time magazine:

RULES OF THE MANDATE
You will NOT be penalized for not having insurance if any of the following applies:

- You are a member of a religion that opposes health insurance
- You are an undocumented immigrant
- You are in jail
- You are a member of an Indian tribe
- You are earning so little that you are not required to file an income tax return
- You are unable to find insurance that costs lesss than 8% of your income
- You already have insurance (Through Medicaid/Medicare or through your employer)


PENALTIES

2014 - $95
2015 - $325
2016 - $695

ENFORCEMENT

The IRS will collect individual mandate penalties. You will either owe more or receive a smaller refund when you file your annual income tax return. However, if you refuse to pay, the ACA prohibits the IRS from jailing you or seizing your property.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
LobowolfXXX
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They can't seize your property, but if you ever sell it and it has equity, they can assert a lien. Again, the amount they can collect (via the sale of property or offsetting a future refund) includes not only the amount of the penalty you owe from not having insurance, but also interest and penalties on your failure to pay when it was due.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Lobo, as of last July the population of the United States was 311,591,917

The CBO estimates that 4,000,000 will pay the penalty.

That works out to 1.28 percent of the population. Actually less because the population will have increased by 2016.
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On 2012-07-08 18:53, mastermindreader wrote:
Lobo, as of last July the population of the United States was 311,591,917

The CBO estimates that 4,000,000 will pay the penalty.

That works out to 1.28 percent of the population. Actually less because the population will have increased by 2016.


Yes, if you mean total Americans, then it's only a little low. If you mean 1% of those who are not exempt, then it's higher. Either way, I expect that they're underestimating the percentage.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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