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tommy
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Define your terms sir! Military?

You are either with us or with the terrorists.

Security forces perhaps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Woland
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Hi landmark,

I have sworn a solemn oath of my own free will and accord to uphold the United States Constitution and defend it against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Hence I certainly accept the concept of taxation and the maintenance of an Army and Navy, among other enumerated powers of the Congress.
mastermindreader
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Woland- as long as you are going to continue to falsely refer to fascism as "left wing" statism, your observation that my use of the word "corporatism" is technically incorrect rings very hollow.

You know very well that most scholars consider fascism to be an amalgam of philosophies and that most also put it at the extreme right of the political spectrum. You are very nearly alone in your constant use of the term as a slur on the left.

I think the false dichotomy of your original question is obvious. It also begs the question insofar as it assumes a fact not in evidence- your definition of "freedom."
tommy
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I agree with Bob there as fascism is extrem right wing but that does not mean they are far from extrem left in fact they are very close to one another in reality.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
mastermindreader
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Tommy- We agree on something! Yes, in practice - though definitely not in theory - the political extremes often appear very similar.
Woland
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Hi Bob,

I don't want to belabor the point or beat a dead horse, but the point is important.

The term "fascism" is most often used by communists and other hard-left extremists as an all-purpose insult with which to attack their opponents regardless of what it actually means. Anything and anyone, everything and everyone that the communists oppose, they call "fascist."

But I am not interested in that usage, I am interested in looking at what fascism really is, and what actual fascist societies were really like. The paradigm is of course Mussolini's Italy.

Mussolini, the founder of the fascist party, was a lifelong socialist, one of the leaders of the Italian Socialist Party, and the editor of its newspaper, Avanti! He left the Socialist Party, and founded the Fascist Party because he thought that Italy should enter WWI on the Franco-British side, against Germany and Austria, and the Socialists were pacifists.

Fascism is a statist organization of a nation's economy, with strong centralized government control. This control is not exercised through expropriation of private industry, as in communism, but by forcing all private activity in the state, including industry, to submit to government direction. There should be no doubt whatsoever, that in contrast to a free-market economy, fascism is very left wing indeed.

As expressed in the Fascist Party's manifesto, its policies were obviously leftist:

Quote:
Politically, the manifesto calls for:

Universal suffrage with a lowered voting age to 18 years, and voting and electoral office eligibility for all age 25 and more, including women;
Proportional representation on a regional basis;
Voting for women (which was opposed by most other European nations);
Representation at government level of newly created national councils by economic sector;
The abolition of the Italian Senate (at the time, the senate, as the upper house of parliament, was by process elected by the wealthier citizens, but were in reality direct appointments by the king. It has been described as a sort of extended council of the crown);
The formation of a national council of experts for labor, for industry, for transportation, for the public health, for communications, etc. Selections to be made of professionals or of tradesmen with legislative powers, and elected directly to a general commission with ministerial powers (this concept was rooted in corporatist ideology and derived in part from Catholic social doctrine).

In labour and social policy, the manifesto calls for:

The quick enactment of a law of the state that sanctions an eight-hour workday for all workers;
A minimum wage;
The participation of workers' representatives in the functions of industry commissions;
To show the same confidence in the labor unions (that prove to be technically and morally worthy) as is given to industry executives or public servants;
Reorganisation of the railways and the transport sector;
Revision of the draft law on invalidity insurance;
Reduction of the retirement age from 65 to 55.

In military affairs, the manifesto advocates:

Creation of a short-service national militia with specifically defensive responsibilities;
Armaments factories are to be nationalised;
A peaceful but competitive foreign policy.

In finance, the manifesto advocates:

A strong progressive tax on capital (envisaging a “partial expropriation” of concentrated wealth);
The seizure of all the possessions of the religious congregations and the abolition of all the bishoprics, which constitute an enormous liability on the Nation and on the privileges of the poor;
Revision of all contracts for military provisions;
The revision of all military contracts and the seizure of 85 percent of the profits therein.
The manifesto thus combined elements of contemporary democratic and progressive thought (franchise reform, labour reform, limited nationalisation, taxes on wealth and war profits) with corporatist emphasis on class collaboration (the idea of social classes existing side by side and collaborating for the sake of national interests; the opposite of the Marxist notion of class struggle).


Fascism differs from communism in a few ways. First of all, it is very nationalistic, and communism was "internationalist" (although in practice, that meant subsuming all other nationalisms to Russian supremacy). Secondly, fascism does not claim that the working class will destroy and replace the bourgeois class, but that all classes in society will be harmonized as are the organs of a body (that's what "corporatism" means, in part) under the direction of the Party and the State. (The program of National-Socialism, which is often conflated with Fascism, when the term is loosely used, did in fact call for the creation of a classless State.)

By the way, you might be interested to learn, if you don't know already, that Mussolini was named (by his staunch socialist father) in honor/memory of Benito Juarez.
Woland
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And as a postscript, let me add that of course the supposedly "right-wing" extremes of Fascism and National-Socialism appear "very similar" to the left-wing extremes -- because they are leftist statists, too!
landmark
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Woland,
Since you say that you have accepted the concept of taxation, but don't believe in govt hand-outs, do you believe that:
1) Married people should have the same tax rate as singles?
2) Nuclear power companies should cease getting liability insurance guaranteed by our tax dollars?
3) The military budget should be immediately cut by 30% as at least that is spent in kickbacks, lobbying, overruns, and other forms of corruption.
4) The home mortgage deduction should be done away with.
5) Stock transactions should be charged a sales tax.
6) Corporations should not be allowed to use government roads or infrastructure.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2012-07-06 12:11, Woland wrote:
And as a postscript, let me add that of course the supposedly "right-wing" extremes of Fascism and National-Socialism appear "very similar" to the left-wing extremes -- because they are leftist statists, too!


I'm still missing the distinction from the point of view of TCMITS* what does it matter whether force is used to coerce in the name of "the most holy", "the state", "the people", "the greater good" or even "your cause here for fifty cents***" ?

* the celebrated man in the streets**
** not originally intended to mean homeless person - really
*** provided you know who to give that fifty cents Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Woland
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Hi Jonathan, the pretext doesn't really matter at all. The distinction we should make, in creating a political spectrum, is between those ideologies that favor using centralized, government control of economic life in order to achieve some social goal, on the one hand, and those ideologies that favor allowing individuals to direct their own economic lives, and the economic life of society to be free of centralized, government control. I suggest that all ideologies that favor government control of economic life are properly left-wing, no matter that the communists have called some of them.
landmark
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Woland wrote:
Quote:
As expressed in the Fascist Party's manifesto, its policies were obviously leftist:

Quote:

Politically, the manifesto calls for:

Universal suffrage with a lowered voting age to 18 years, and voting and electoral office eligibility for all age 25 and more, including women;
Proportional representation on a regional basis;
Voting for women (which was opposed by most other European nations);

So your contention is that universal suffrage is a left wing idea. Please remember that next time you discuss civil rights and Conservatives and who the racists and sexists were.
Woland
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Hi landmark,

Quote:
Since you say that you have accepted the concept of taxation, but don't believe in govt hand-outs, do you believe that:
1) Married people should have the same tax rate as singles?
2) Nuclear power companies should cease getting liability insurance guaranteed by our tax dollars?
3) The military budget should be immediately cut by 30% as at least that is spent in kickbacks, lobbying, overruns, and other forms of corruption.
4) The home mortgage deduction should be done away with.
5) Stock transactions should be charged a sales tax.
6) Corporations should not be allowed to use government roads or infrastructure.


The examples you cite are typical of the kind of social engineering and special interest pleading that are built into the current tax code.

Starting from the bottom, 6, of course "corporations" should be allowed to use the roads. The roads were built with the taxes paid by the corporations or people who worked for them. Why shouldn't any lawful member of the public be prevented from using the public roads?

I have no problem with a "sales tax" or a "transaction fee" on stock transfers or any other movement of money. A 1% transaction fee on all transactions would arguably raise more money than the current Federal income tax, and would be far less onerous.

The home mortgage deduction was put there to help people buy a home and to support the construction industry. I would much rather cut the overall Federal tax rate to 10%, no deductions at all, but I don't particularly support the mortgage deduction. Abolishing it, however, would result in a massive crash of real estate prices and put out of work those construction workers who are still working. Is that what you want?

I agree that there has long been a lot of folderol and chicanery with the military budget. I think that we should transform our military from a job-creating, base-creating, social-experimentation organization into a much more lethal and effective force with which we could utterly crush and annihilate our enemies. I think we could do it at a lower cost than we incur now. Simply cutting 30% out of the budget would probably leave the folderol and chicanery in, without adding much to our military power.

I don't think any going industry needs Federal subsidies. However, the whole liability side of speculative percentage-fee trial lawyer profiteering also needs to be addressed.

I think everyone should pay a 10% income tax, no deductions. Fair and square.
landmark
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My point was not to agree with or disagree with any one of the above--my point is that unless you reject all of the above then you are in favor of government hand-outs, no matter how good you think the reason is, enumerated or not.
LobowolfXXX
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The use of government roads by corporations is a handout?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
mastermindreader
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Like I said, most scholars agree that Fascism is predominately right wing.

Note particularly the second quote following, which pretty much disposes of the idea that Mussolini was a left wing liberal.

Quote:
Fascists have commonly presented themselves as politically syncretic—opposing firm association with any section of the left-right spectrum, considering it inadequate to describe their beliefs,[6][7] though fascism's goal to promote the rule of people deemed innately superior while seeking to purge society of people deemed innately inferior has been noted as being a prominent far-right stance.[8] Fascism opposes multiple ideologies: conservatism, liberalism, and the two major forms of socialism—communism and social democracy.[9] To achieve its goals, the fascist state purges forces, ideas, people, and systems deemed to be the cause of decadence and degeneration.[10] Fascism promotes political violence and war as forms of direct action that promote national rejuvenation, spirit and vitality.[3][11] Fascists commonly utilize paramilitary organizations to commit or threaten violence against their opponents.[12]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

As to Mussolini's Italian fascism:

Quote:
Given Italian Fascism’s pragmatic political amalgamations of left-wing and right-wing socio-economic policies, discontented workers and peasants proved an abundant source of popular political power, especially because of peasant opposition to socialist agricultural collectivism. Thus armed, the former socialist Benito Mussolini oratorically inspired and mobilized country and working-class people: “We declare war on socialism, not because it is socialist, but because it has opposed nationalism.... ” Moreover, for campaign financing, in the 1920–21 period, the National Fascist Party also courted the industrialists and (historically-feudal) landowners, by appealing to their fears of left-wing socialist and Bolshevik labor politics and urban and rural strikes; the Fascists promised a good business climate of cost-effective labor, wage, and political stability; the Fascist Party was en route to power; the historian Charles F. Delzell reports:

"At first, the Fascists [PNF] were concentrated in Milan and a few other cities. They gained ground quite slowly, between 1919 and 1920; not until after the scare, brought about by the workers “occupation of the factories” in the late summer of 1920 did fascism become really widespread. The industrialists began to throw their financial support to it. Moreover, toward the end of 1920, fascism began to spread into the countryside, bidding for the support of large landowners, particularly in the area between Bologna and Ferrara, a traditional stronghold of the Left, and scene of frequent violence. Socialist and Catholic organizer of farm hands in that region, Venezia Giulia, Tuscany, and even distant Apulia, were soon attacked by [Black Shirt] squads of Fascists, armed with castor oil, blackjacks, and more lethal weapons. The era of Squadrismo, and nightly expeditions to burn Socialist and Catholic labor headquarters had begun."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Fascism
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2012-07-06 12:31, Woland wrote:... I suggest that all ideologies that favor government control of economic life are properly left-wing,[].


What do you make of the Federal Reserve printing money as it relates to 'control of economic life' ?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Woland
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Hi landmark,

Quote:
So your contention is that universal suffrage is a left wing idea.


No, not the point. Look at the Fascist Party's program in toto and tell me that it isn't left wing.
Woland
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Quote:
What do you make of the Federal Reserve printing money as it relates to 'control of economic life' ?


I think it's a bad thing. And it takes us back to some of the controversies about the Bank of the United States.
Woland
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No Bob, Mussolini was not a "left wing liberal." He was a left wing statist. The term "liberal" -if used "correctly" - really describes the old-fashioned Anglo-American right wing, after all.
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