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The Mighty Fool Inner circle I feel like a big-top tent having 2140 Posts |
One thing I've noticed during my years in the magic community, is that there are some people who seem to have a very firm-set idea of just what exactly "Makes a magician" or what "magic should ALWAYS be", and they attack (directly or indirectly...through humor or gall) any thing / one which seems to different from those ideals. Applying that logic to myself, I suppose I should re-examine my dismissal of sleight-of-hand effects for a 3-6 year old audience. I guess it COULD work, though I personally don't see HOW.
I agree with Tony, and the great Zuke, in that laughs-per-minute are all-important when performing for that age-range, but there are some in the Café who simply cant STAND that approach. I'll name just two: a gent named Truthteller whom I havnt seen in here for awhile now, and David Drowyn, who may or may not be a pen-name for someone else. Detractors of the funny-biz approach constantly claim that you can get equal or greater results with pure sleights and such.....but I've yet to see any proof in THAT pudding!
Everybody wants to beleive.....we just help them along.
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2392 Posts |
It is clear to me that there are different ways to be successful. Zucchini started out by sharing what worked for him. Others began sharing what worked for them. Great! What’s the problem?
Yesterday a lady came to my show with her two kids and said, “We came back to see your show again because the last magician we saw didn’t do any tricks, he just told jokes.” Now, does that mean I am more successful than the magician that is heavy into comedy? Of course not. Its just not what that particular customer was looking for. My point is we all have something that makes us unique, a strategy to entertain. We can be successful in different ways. Would any of you do a linking ring routine to classical music in the middle of your kid show? I’m sure not, and yet it works like a charm for me for many different reasons. Concerning using sleight of hand in kid shows, there is a pretty good thread here about that: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......um=17&35 By the way, I totally get the ‘Sponge Bob’ reference. Sponge Bob entertainers on two levels. The kids think its funny but some of the jokes only the adults will get. And that’s what’s funny about it.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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The Great Zucchini Inner circle 1347 Posts |
Hey Ken, Disney also works on the same Sponge Bob level. Toy Story was hysterical. I understand the two levels, I think my thinking was that it really depends on the age, weather you target it or not. For instance, you're linking ring routine is probably second to none-fantastic, but would you do it for a room full of 4 year olds. I think he and I were coming at it from obviously different angles.
At schools for elementary kids, no doubt mix it up, with tons of levels, however, my point at the beginning was that if it's a target show, all the kids but 2 are 5 years old, those couple of kids won't ruin it, by just talking to them, and if you aim your show at them, then the majority of kids(little kids)won't be into it as much at the moment. You're right about linking rings and magic, etc. It depends on who the audience is. I'd never take my show in front of teenagers. It just got to black and white, I throw out lines for the parents, however my show isn't desingned with lines for them, meaning, something usually funny happens, that I comment on, and parents laugh, so I think he believe I'm so in a box, that making the parents laugh is against policy. If they laugh great, I just don't design that way, because very young children, your'e comepeting with their attention spans, so I'm quick hitter, after quick hitter, after quick hitter trick. Laugh a second type stuff, but I get it, older kids need more magic. My point of the thread was if you have younger kids, and only a couple older, forget them, they will jump aboard. |
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2392 Posts |
I got what you were saying from the first post and thought it was great advice, and frankly, didn’t pay much more attention to this thread. I thought ‘how could anyone disagree with that?’
By the way, I absolutely will do that linking ring set to classical music for a group of 4 year olds. I do it in the middle of the show and it gives the little ones a rest from all of the hysterics. I find it helpful in reeling the audience back in after getting them all wound up. After this routine they are all quiet and it’s a great time to tell a story or do something educational if the show calls for it. Then, slowly I will start with the hysterics again. It’s part of the roller coaster ride.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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Red Shadow Inner circle 1788 Posts |
If you list yourself as a magician, then your act must consist of at least 50% magic. And strong magic at that.
Just because we class children's ages differently, it doesn't mean the children are thinking the same as us. They also see all magicians as being equal to the likes of dynamo, Criss angels and whoever they saw on TV. They expect you to be as good as them, until you prove them wrong. For them the word 'magician' only has one interpretation until they get older and wiser (and see more acts). If you want the adults in the back of the room to stop talking and watch your show with the children, then the tricks you do better fool and entertain them as well as the children. Tricks like run rabbit run will simply not cut it for children older than 4. You have to choose tricks that have modern appeal yet work for all ages. For example, the cut and restored rope can work for all ages. You can use the same trick for multiple ages of audiences, all will appreciate the trick differently. The concept of the trick will still work for everybody, but the jokes will work with the young and the magic will work with the old. So basically, you structure a routine that works for all ages at the same time. To stop hecklers - I agree with franks first post on this thread. Have a well timed and scripted act, and there simply isn't the opportunity for hecklers to start. Strong magic that they can't guess at solutions for also help. If your getting lots of hecklers, I dare say that your magic is probally bad enough that the audience knows how the trick is done. But also your character was not strong enough to keep them quiet also. I will also point out that there is a massive difference between hecklers at a school or nursery show, to those at a birthday party. I don't have a problem with either. But certain methods suggested so far would only work in one of these environments. |
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The Great Zucchini Inner circle 1347 Posts |
Once again, I don't think we can assume what 50 % of anyone's show is, without actually attending. James in La, I did have a chance to look up your site, and you have a terrific, fun, energetic, website. The video was terrific as well.
Steve, your term magic is interesting to me, because what's really magic, and who defines it. There is a way that everything is done. My point in this is that in the eyes of my target audience, they think I'm a magician. Slush powder, change bag, American Flag Blendo, 10 foot pole out of bag, peanut butter and jelly, disappearing hanky in to thumbtip, of course. Sugar, disappearing the same way. I also use a dove, blooming boquet. Look,to use this might not be magic, but when a 4 year old sees a hanky disappear, who are you, to say that calling myself a magician shoud be foreign to these kids. It's magic in their eyes. However, I use an enormous amount of byplay and extra laugh inducing type things in my show, that you almost forget about my trick. They are laughing very hard, etc. I don't get heckled, but I explained why. Use it or don't. If I'm invited to a 5 year old party, I'm gearing my show to that age, not the couple 8 year old sibblings. I just talk to them first. I actually had a 5 year old-8 year old combo yesterday. This is rare. I've seen 3's and 5's combine, and 4's and 6's, but 5 and 8 year olds was different. I started my show, any older guys, if you see something really silly, that might be for the younger guys be a good sport. They all had a blast the whole time. I just disarmed them of the 'cool' factor. Sometimes, I might even say if you really, really need to tell me how a trick is done, come to me after show, and I will tell you if you're right. Steve, in my opinion, if you do 50 percent "strong magic' for the age groups that I target, my show wouldn't be as popular. I do quick hitter type magic. Fast, quick, and lots of byplay fun stuff. This age works differently than everyone else. Now, my show is targeted, however, I do many, many public shows, these are family shows, but because I've branded myself pretty well here, people just know that it's for the young people in their family. Like, oh, sesame st. Posted: Jul 15, 2012 8:40am I didn't mean I use a dove, I meant dove pan. I don't use any live animals. Posted: Jul 15, 2012 8:43am One more thing. I don't use run rabbit run anymore, but if actually can be fine for 5 and 6 year olds as well Steve, not just 4 year olds. |
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2392 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-07-15 07:13, ku7uk3 wrote: I personally agree with this. However, don't discount the great success of many who make comedy their main focus. People love to laugh an MOST will be completely satisfied with this type of performance. Many will prefer it over 'strong' magic. By the way, I've seen magicians kill with Run Rabbit Run and Hippity Hop Rabbits for ADULT audiences. Never say never.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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Red Shadow Inner circle 1788 Posts |
I guess if a 4 year old has never seen a magic show, and your setting the precedence for what they define a magician as, you can get away with doing standard magic effects. But my audiences have seen many magicians by their third birthday. I am compared to them, so therefore I have to be better than them to keep their interest. Thankfully - I am.
Run rabbit run can still do well in some places, to some audiences. But I don't carry tricks around with me that can only work with one set of children. I takes effects with me that I can perform for all ages and still get a good magical routine from them. I have 4 hours worth of tricks in my box, and pick the right tricks for that audience watching. But I could also do any of the effects for any age group with just a slight bit of tweaking on the patter. The tricks will fool everybody, but my character and routine will be what keeps their interest. Steve |
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The Great Zucchini Inner circle 1347 Posts |
I think that maybe you're going against the cold caller or the comparison of other magicians, Steve. Big Bird for instance is a brand. The guy in the costume doesn't care if a 10 year knows he is wearing a costume, he's a brand for youngsters. That's what I trying to say. It's extremely rare if a parent calls, and doesn't
know me, very rare. I'm a brand in our area. I don't need tricks for older kids, because I do hundreds of shows a year for kids under 7. Now, let's talk about the term "real' magic. Please follow me for a second, because I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but magic isn't real. It's an illusion, and is done by a trick somehow, which some people do at an extreme diffulty and skill level that is extraodinary. I'm a huge fan of going to magic shows, but I know it's a trick, weather I know how it's done or not. My point on this is that with preschoolers, I've never had diffult magic in the show, because it's replaced by "silly, slapstick, and overall connection with kids', however, to a 4 year old, slush powder is magical. A mouth coil is magical, I know the laymen won't think it's magic, a 4 year old would. I'm a huge fan of David Copperfield, Lance Burton, David Blaine, and lots of other people, but I would school them, if they put 40 preshoolers in front of me, and 40 in front of them. This is not to put an extra feather in my cap, I'm sure many people on here could entertain better than Copperfield, preschoolers, if their show was geared that way. I have parents tell me all the time that their kids have seen 'regular' magicians, and they weren't engaged that much, or the tricks were over that head. I will give you an example. My buddy Eric Henning tells the story often, about when my car broke down. It's rare when I'm ever late to a show, but I was this time. Eric warmed up a preshool audience til I got there. He's an amazing technically sound magician and entertainer. He's performed for the Obamas, and hugely successful, however this was an audience that wasn't his target. He performed for 15 minutes until I got there. His sleight is amazing, everything, it wasn't his audience. I took over, and this guy who is one of the most skilled "real' magicians I've ever seen, comes up and tells me, "wow, you schooled me on that, I get it now'. It was my target audience. I'd never take my show in front of his audience, but I will never find myself in that position, because my show is branded for a certain audience. |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-07-10 19:12, The Great Zucchini wrote: I have never had a problem doing shows with mixed age kids. I think the secret is to do "good material" and don't talk down to them and talk "to" them rather than at them. Quote:
On 2012-07-13 01:25, JamesinLA wrote: I agree - I do the Jimmy Stoppard routine using the balls and Jar at every kid show and it rocks!
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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The Mighty Fool Inner circle I feel like a big-top tent having 2140 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-07-15 12:00, ku7uk3 wrote: Here now we get into a difference of countries. England is absolutely LOADED with kid-entertainers, and top-heavy on kid's-magicians. It's quite literaly the world-capital of kid's party entertainment. There are so many of them packed into such a small area, I often wonder how any of them make any buisiness through the competition. Over there (England) yes, by the time theyre 5, kids probably have seen at least 20 magic shows, between their own birthdays and freind's parties. Nonetheless, the vast majority of kid-magic-shows I've seen clips of from across the pond are heavy on the laughs & fun, with the actual magic in more of a supporting role. As to RRR, yes it is overdone in kidshows, just like miser's-dream, the coloring book, hip hop rabits, etc., but just because kids have seen it before dosnt mean they cant enjoy it anymore, especialy if you put your personality into it and make the effect your own. If you can get the kids screaming with glee, laughing uproariously and clapping, the parents in the back of the room wont be ABLE to talk for all the noise and mirth, and theyll actually get into watching the kids have a ball because A)they love to see their kids being happy, and B)it will remind them of how much fun they had when THEY were kids.
Everybody wants to beleive.....we just help them along.
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
I remember when I was a kid doing kid shows and I took out a prop and the kid audience said - "we saw that one or I know that one" I would srug my shoulders and then act like I was going to put the prop away and make a gag out of it. By the end the kids were shouting - "No don't put it away we want to see it".
There are so many ways to control the show and the audience at a kid show. However I think that it takes experience to learn and by doing.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts |
We are all different, but I have to disagree with Steve's 50/50 strong magic. In my show I have at least 80% non-magic, with only occasional magic moments. When I sit in the audience, that is what I want to see. Pure magic (ie FISM winners) bores me.
Having said that I saw a clip of Steve's thimble routine, and it is wonderful entertainment. So in his hands, perhaps pure magic does work. The bottom line is that we need to know our own personalities and strengths, and gear our shows towards those.
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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Gerry Walkowski Inner circle 1450 Posts |
Eric,
I know the two of us started off on the wrong foot a few months ago, mostly through my own doings, but I’d like to move forward and start fresh. We’ll just agree that we disagree on some things. Your heckler advice is valid for anyone who has a show designed specifically for toddlers. I know you specialize in this particular market and all the power to you. Having said that, I agree 100% with Frank’s point of view. The best way to prevent heckling in the first place is “to have a strong character and a great act.” (I’m purposely left out the part about sleight of hand part only because I don’t perform sleight of hand. However, that doesn’t mean that I don’t enjoy watching it in a show.) To me, this is where the rubber meets the road. If you have an interesting show, folks should be so consumed with you and your performance that they shouldn’t even be thinking of anything else. It’s like going to see a great motion picture at your local cinema. You get so caught up in the plot that you forget all about your personal problems for the next 1.5 hours. At some point in your career, however, I think every entertainer comes to that fork in the road and has to make a decision. Do you turn left (and entertain a very narrow age group), or do you turn right (and strive for a more balanced show that entertains a wider age bracket)? For me, it’s the latter, although I still classify my show as entertainment for children and family audiences. Personally, I follow the exact route that Jim follows. I like it when people are “laughing at many of the same things but perhaps for different reasons and other parts of the same routine are aimed for one or the other of them.” This is what makes the show so enjoyable for me as well as my audience. Like Frank has said, “There is absolutely no reason not to have an act with broad appeal.” Gerry |
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Red Shadow Inner circle 1788 Posts |
If your 60 minute magic show only has 12 minutes of magic it, and yet you called yourself a magician on all your advertisements and websites - what do you think the clients are thinking after they see you?
Yes the kids were laughing the entire time and had lots of fun. But the parents hired a magician and not a clown. Sometimes, we magicians are actually hired to perform magic! I'm not saying you can't have all the jokes and all the by play you have with the children, I'm just saying that if you promote yourself as a magician, you had better do some good magic as well as making them laugh. I watch lots of other magicians perform and too many forget to perform magic. I'm listening to the parents sat around me, and they are either bored because the entertainer is 'just for the kids' or talking amongst themselves because he's not doing anything that interests them. If anyone is having problems with hecklers of any age, the answer is simple - do some magic that actually impresses them and makes them want to watch. Run rabbit run is more entertainment than a magic trick - at least to the parents watching anyway. That's something else we magicians have to be caution off. Just because we bought it from a magic dealer, does not always mean it's a magic tricks to the audineces we perform to. |
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charliecheckers Inner circle 1969 Posts |
Steve, I believe if the parents are saying they are bored because the "entertainer is just for the kids" it is because the entertainer is boring regardless of what material he/she is doing. Just performing magic would likely not change anything. I have seen many magicians perform technically sound performances in a very boring fashion and in no way did the magic save the show.
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The Great Zucchini Inner circle 1347 Posts |
Gerry, thanks for your response, and I would like us to get along. I don't like the way things went down before with us, and I appreciate you saying what you did. First of all Steve, my show is 40 minutes, not an hour, I do about 15 minutes of games after my show, and then I mingle for 15 minutes, so people get to know me.
You keep suggesting I'm advertising a certain way. Yes, on my site it says magician, but out of the 400 shows a year I do, I can tell you 398 of them, they know who their calling. I have no disappointment in what type of show it is, because they are aware of me. Listen, I won't argue against Jim's broad appeal show, or Frank's or anyone else for that matter. They have awesome shows I bet. I don't ever need to have a show for anyone over 7-I'm booked just about through September right now. In fact, some parents that wanted to make sure they got a spot with me, have booked as far out as June of 2013. I'm not kidding. I hate saying that over and over, because it will turn you off, because I'm bragging, but I'm trying to illustrate the point that I will respect the general show, but because I'm so well known for my market, I will do 35-45 shows a month just for this age group. Steve, to me there is no better age group. In the Dc metro area, we have 3000 preschools, and I'm at quite a few of them. This market has an amazing amount of kids, and by targeting from the beginning I got a step up on the people that say they perform for people 3-100. That tells the parents nothing. However, when I started 15 years ago, before anyone knew about me, I'd say I was the best PRESCHOOl entertainer around. Boom. The calls started flying in, then I created my following which I have now. I will take someone else as an example. Joe Romano is a magician in our area. He doesn't do preschoolers. He's targeted schools and has an amazing reputation for school age kids. As a matter fact he was at a show recently and kids that were younger than his normal range were there, and he said, "I don't know how The Great Zuke does". All the parents started laughing. Lots of people have their audience, and more people target than you realize. Dave Risley does about 700 preschools a year. His whole audience is preschool. He's branded himself that way and is hugely successful. One more time Gerry, I'm glad you wrote buddy, and I'm glad to squash the past with us. |
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Bill Hilly Elite user 449 Posts |
On page 2 of "Entertaining Preschoolers! Lecture Notes" (when's the book coming by the way?) Eric Henning describes his awakening when he opened for GZ. I had the unfortunate experience of following GZ once.
I dated the girl who gave him his nickname. Now I'm forever know to her as... ...The Shriveled Pickle |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-07-15 20:18, charliecheckers wrote: I find magicians that don't do much magic in the show often boring. I don't do tricks like run rabbit run just because I have seen to many bad magicians do it. I also don't do a kid show I do a family magic show that will entertain kids, adults and kids of all ages.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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danfreed Inner circle West Chester PA 1354 Posts |
You can completely gear your act towards a specific age group of kids, and still entertain the adults at the same time, even if it's an act geared towards 3-6 year olds. Often parents tell me they had as much or more fun than the kids, but my act is very silly, lots of slapstick, etc. I make no effort to entertain the adults, other than a few quick comments or looks if the situation presents itself. But if the kids are having a blast, and the volunteers who come up are in a funny situation, and I'm improvising and reacting to what the kids are doing rather than making it a super scripted non-interactive thing, then it tends to be fun for the adults too.
I also try to pick some of the tricks to use when I get there, after I've watched and interacted with the kids a bit. This is because sometimes the mood, personality, and maturity varies from party to party. In other words, I can do some of the "kiddy" stuff for a group of 10 year olds on one day and it will kill, then the next group that age, the same stuff may flop because they would have been better suited for the "cool" stuff. I may also change course as I go, as needed. Of course, it's not just the trick, but how you "play it", but you know what I mean. And yes, you can do sleight of hand for young kids, it's just a method of accomplishing something, so as long as it's entertaining, keep doing it. An example of simple sleight of hand that works is multiplying foam bananas, or making a coin disappear and reappear, etc.
Dan Freed
AKA The Amazing Spaghetti https://www.magiciandanfreed.com/birthday-party-magician-for-kids http://thecaricatureartist.com http://danieljayfreed.com |
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