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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Interesting Poll: Should women join the infantry (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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stoneunhinged
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I wanna go to Israel.
balducci
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Quote:
On 2012-07-13 06:17, Woland wrote:

By the way, Lobo & Bob, as Santa knows, women have not had, and generally do not have, combat roles in the I.D.F., although Israel is burdened with more self-hating, multi-cultural, post-modernist ideologues than even the United States.

What does "have not had, and generally do not have" mean? It sounds like you are contradicting yourself. As for what Santa said, I am guessing his experience there dates from long before the Equality Amendment to the Military Service law was enacted in January of 2000 in Israel, so what he experienced is long out of date.

In any case:

What a female combat soldier in the Israeli Defence Forces' mixed-sex Karakal Battalion has to say:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8518649.stm

And something from before:

http://www.npr.org/2012/02/13/146802589/......nt-lines

In Israel, which is well known as one of the few countries where women are drafted, the policy is evolving. Santorum cited Israel as a country that doesn't allow women on the frontlines because of the psychological effect it has on men. But in fact, the Israeli military does allow women in the vast majority of combat positions.

Israel began including women in combat units after 1995, when a 23-year-old South African immigrant who arrived with a pilot's license from her native country was denied entry into the Air Force and successfully sued for discrimination. Since then, the Israel Defense Forces has gradually integrated more units in compliance with a Supreme Court order.

All told, only 12 percent of military positions in Israel are off-limits to women, including combat positions in the armored corps and infantry. But women can service in light infantry, artillery, and border patrol roles. More and more positions have been opened over time, though there are also reports that the IDF often doesn't accept women for units for which they are eligible and evacuates women during combat situations. Women comprise only 33 percent of the IDF due to a shorter length of service and a more lenient discharge system for religiously observant Jewish women. Recent years have seen the creation of the "Caracal Batallion" a mixed-gender infantry unit that patrols near the southern border with Egypt and the first woman commanding a sniper platoon.
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Woland
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Hi balducci, I'm not contradicting myself, I was trying to say that Israeli women were generally not allowed in combat roles until recently, and that their inclusion in such roles reflects the same sort of self-hating post-modernism that the phenomenon has in the United States.
balducci
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Quote:
On 2012-07-13 05:54, rowdymagi5 wrote:

The local firemans and policemans training is different for the women. In one scenario, a male has to run to a car, pull a 165 pound dummy out of the car and carry him 20 yards to safety. He cant do it, he doesn't pass. For the women cadidates, they have to pull out a small sandbag and they are allowed to drag it 20 yards. Not the same standards.

Depends on what the tests are trying to determine. And I am not claiming to know.

But are they really about how much weight you can drag, or are they more about determining whether the candidates are physically fit and have the overall requisite agility and stamina?

Sure, some of the women cannot do the same tasks on the job as well as some of the men, but neither can some of the men. Furthermore, it all works both ways. E.g., if all women are not big and strong enough to hack a door down as fast as some men, perhaps some men are too big and slow to work in a tight situation requiring speed and agility.
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Pakar Ilusi
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I am anti War. Anti violence.

But it is a reality of life, sadly.

But hey, if we MUST fight, get EVERYONE IN who wants to fight I say!

We're using assault rifles and artillery nowadays btw...

Not broadswords.

I personally believe becoming the Police is more dangerous most of the times.

If women can do that, why not Infantry?

Women snipers in Russia did well, so what's the big deal?

They volunteered right? So it is THEIR choice.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Carrie Sue
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Balducci wrote: "But are they really about how much weight you can drag, or are they more about determining whether the candidates are physically fit and have the overall requisite agility and stamina?"

That's what training standards assess. That should be a no-brainer. If men are required to drag a certain load a certain distance, and women are only required to drag a lighter load a lesser distance, then each may be physically fit, but only one is up to the standard of a combat soldier.

Lowering standards for women is social engineering that does nothing to improve the quality of the force.

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balducci
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Quote:
On 2012-07-13 07:11, Woland wrote:
In the meantime, landmark, here is a photo that purportedly shows an IDF soldier in a state of readiness:

Image


"purportedly" is the key word. In reality, who knows what that photo really shows (except the obvious).

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/new......gun.html

It would not be the first time the IDF released staged photos to manipulate opinion, to make soldiers look friendly and cuddly.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun......de-photo

http://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-gay-sol......ce-says/

Of course, I do not mean to pick on the IDF ... most any military group around the world does the same sort of thing.
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stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2012-07-13 10:45, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-13 07:11, Woland wrote:
In the meantime, landmark, here is a photo that purportedly shows an IDF soldier in a state of readiness:

Image


"purportedly" is the key word. In reality, who knows what that photo really shows (except the obvious).

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/new......gun.html

It would not be the first time the IDF released staged photos to manipulate opinion, to make soldiers look friendly and cuddly.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun......de-photo

http://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-gay-sol......ce-says/

Of course, I do not mean to pick on the IDF ... most any military group around the world does the same sort of thing.


I haven't even read your post yet, Balducci. But I thought it was well worth quoting.

[everyone groans simultaneously at the Unhinged's sexism]
acesover
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Quote:
On 2012-07-13 10:17, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
I am anti War. Anti violence.

But it is a reality of life, sadly.

But hey, if we MUST fight, get EVERYONE IN who wants to fight I say!

We're using assault rifles and artillery nowadays btw...

Not broadswords.

I personally believe becoming the Police is more dangerous most of the times.

If women can do that, why not Infantry?

Women snipers in Russia did well, so what's the big deal?

They volunteered right? So it is THEIR choice.




While it may be their choice, they are not suited for the infantry. There are many roles women can take in the armed forces. But armed combat and the rigors of what occurs in the field is not one of them. If we have to go and look for one out of a thousand or five thousand that can do the job don't you think that tells you something? My choice is to be an NFL quaterback. Guess what. I didn't make it. I am not qualified.

Your comments about assault rifles and broadswords shows that it is obvious you were not in the armed forces. You watch to much TV and to many movies.
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LobowolfXXX
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It seems like the best way to find the most qualified people would be test everyone.
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landmark
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From what I've read recently, the military is thinking that women are better suited for controlling drones than men are. Oh joy.
MagicSanta
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Octopus I am not offended at all. I am trying to lay facts to those hre who felt erving their countries was beneath them. The fact is that in order to make congress happy in 79 and 80 they changed jobs that were not considered combat positions to combat for the sole purpos o putting women into combat roles. Happened to the USS simon Lake which also shiftes from a shore duty to sea so now thanks to those eager young lasses I got sea and combat credit while defending St Marys Georgia.

I was also in Beiruit blowing things up....total women present in uniform that I saw....zero. I am sure the ai force had plenty of combat princesses in Sardena.
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-07-13 11:06, LobowolfXXX wrote:
It seems like the best way to find the most qualified people would be test everyone.


Logical, straightforward and egalitarian solutions like that don't seem to be very popular around here.
critter
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I do think that the military and similar jobs should have uniform standards. If they're doing the same job then they should have to meet the same qualifications to do it.
My idea of equality is that everyone has the same shot at every job, and the most qualified candidates are chosen.
So if an exceptional woman does meet the same qualifications as the men (and I know a few who could) then let her do the job. And it might end up being that only 1% of those who qualify are women, or even 0%, but what I am not talking about is just letting a few unqualified women in or using the lowered standards just to pacify a few critics.
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Tony Iacoviello
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As prior military, I have no problem with any qualified person in any position in the military.
As a father, I would not want my daughter in combat. But then again, I would not my son in combat either.

Tony
critter
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Quote:
On 2012-07-13 12:08, Tony Iacoviello wrote:
As prior military, I have no problem with any qualified person in any position in the military.
As a father, I would not want my daughter in combat. But then again, I would not my son in combat either.

Tony


This is my favorite post in this thread.
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Woland
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It's a good one, critter, but I remain rather fond of the three photographic posts.
Carrie Sue
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On 2012-07-13 13:44, Woland wrote:
It's a good one, critter, but I remain rather fond of the three photographic posts.


That figures.

Carrie
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stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2012-07-13 12:05, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-13 11:06, LobowolfXXX wrote:
It seems like the best way to find the most qualified people would be test everyone.


Logical, straightforward and egalitarian solutions like that don't seem to be very popular around here.


It would be impossible to test people regarding their combat skills without putting them into combat.

So I disagree that Lobo was being particularly logical in this particular post.

(I always hesitate to disagree with Lobo, because his IQ is probably twice that of mine.)
mastermindreader
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Short of actually pulling a trigger and killing someone there are innumerable ways to test someone's combat skills outside of actual lethal combat. That's what training and testing are all about. True, you aren't going to know until someone's actually under enemy fire if he's another Audie Murphy or if he's going to cut and run.

But you can get a pretty good idea.
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