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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3079 Posts 
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...is always a bad idea.
Now, if the barbarians are at the gate, I see no ethical problem with self-defense. But self-defense assumes that some idiot thought they could achieve something constructive through war. Achieving something constructive through war is...ah...problematic. War is destructive, not constructive. (There might be a few responses that I'm anticipating that I'm not yet responding to, because I prefer conversation to essay writing.) So that's my thesis: war is always a bad idea. |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2551 Posts
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War, huh? Good God, y'all.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts
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Robert E. Lee, Tecumseh Sherman, the Duke of Wellington - would all agree with you.
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5015 Posts
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I'm not a pacifist. That said, I believe there have been very few just wars. I'm not even sure I would know what that means. What I do know is that the vast majority of wars in my lifetime have been horrific actions, fought for the enrichment and aggrandizement of the elite of at least one side. People, are always saying, "Of course, war is horrible, but it's a last resort," but I don't believe that. It's not a last resort. In practice, it's the first, second, or third resort perhaps, but nowhere near the last resort. For many, it's a game, a ritual, a sign of manhood, a rite of passage. And cliched as it is, it's the young who are sent to fight the wars that the old won't risk their lives with. Always easier to destroy other people's lives.
I will have some respect for those who declare war, when their lives on the line; when their bodies are on fire; when their limbs are blown apart, when their children are mutilated. Then maybe we'll truly see war as a last resort. Until then, they're not even trying and don't care to.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27122 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 12:57, stoneunhinged wrote: Huh? Daddy Warbucks you must be mistaken. For who? By what standards? Reducing the size of the non-ruling class by "other means" causes way more property damage to the land and its profitability while war offers "the people" opportunity to feel righteous and fee that they are participating in a "good cause"... and just look at the technological benefits... and the movies... and the souvenirs... and the parades and... Bad how?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Woland Special user 680 Posts
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OK, landmark: on September 11th, 2001, our lives were on the line; our bodies were on fire; our limbs were blown apart; our children were mutilated. Our just and measured response to that should have been, and should continue to be, nothing less than the total defeat of the enemies who did this -- to civilians. Unconditional, and without limit.
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3010 Posts
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Don Pendleton, who wrote the "Executioner" (Mack Bolan) action series for Pinnacle press, summed up his (and Bolan's) view thusly:
There are two types of men in the world: Civilized men and Animal men. Civilized men build and cultivate. Animal men destroy and plunder what the Civilized man builds and cultivates. It is sometimes necessary for the Civilized man to use the Animal man's methods against him, in order to defend what he builds and cultivates.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5845 Posts
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We need war so our new ladywarriors have been cheated out of leading the charge. Your anti war stance is sexist.
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3010 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 13:38, Woland wrote: In my opinion, we should have launched into focused and continuing 'shadow ops.' Blatant invasion has proved too costly and only partially effective.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts
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No contradiction with my comment.
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motown Inner circle Atlanta by way of Detroit 5967 Posts
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"If you ever write anything about me after I'm gone, I will come back and haunt you."
– Karl Germain |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5015 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 13:38, Woland wrote: I was in NYC on 9/11 and still am. The debris floated down to my terrace for weeks after. So, the rulers attacked, as a first resort, Afghanistan, and then as a second resort Iraq. Let's just admit some people love war, and be done with this "last resort" nonsense. There were many options other than a war on the Iraqi people who had nothing to do with 9/11. The "War on Terror" has made my life far, far less secure. It would be hard to imagine a set of US actions more guaranteed to spread violence around the world. In 2001, the President in no way put his body on the line. George the Lion-hearted--I don't think so. Although he did fly in with a turkey once IIRC. A really poor example if you're trying to support a just war theory. At least give us World War II or the American Civil War to wrestle with.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3079 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 13:29, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Bad as in...does more harm than good. But Jon, surely you know exactly what I mean. You're just playing with me. 
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27122 Posts
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IMHO the incident in American on 9/11 is not a great example for a dialog about war in the classical 'armies/land' sense.
One could argue that the events were an action in a war that's been going on since The Crusades. This time instead of "us" reducing their capital city to shambles they made a mess of our infrastructure here. Not sure what to make of "war on "+X as it relates to war in the classical armies-land models of cost/benefit.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3079 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 15:39, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Agreed. 9/11 was a criminal act of epic proportions, but not an act of war. But that has nothing to do with the question at hand, Jon. I'm saying that war is stupid and accomplishes nothing. Defensively it accomplishes...ah...uh...defense. But offensively it is misguided and stupid. |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2551 Posts
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I don't want to talk about this, but I'd love to watch others talk about it so here's hoping someone picks up the ball:
"International Criminal Court."
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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Bill Hilly Elite user 449 Posts
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What was the reason or cause of the first war, and who started or instigated it?
This ain't a trivia question. I'm asking for real. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27122 Posts
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On 2012-07-14 16:07, stoneunhinged wrote: and I'm saying it accomplishes much in both the short and long term. Not that I'm condoning it or supporting it as a practice since I'm not in the ruling class.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Woland Special user 680 Posts
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Hi landmark, whether the war was well executed or not, well strategized or not, did not come into your initial definition of a just war. Based on what you indicated were the phenomena that would justify a war, 9/11 fit the bill. You're arguing that the response was not strategically or even tactically optimal, and that the response did not achieve the results you would have desired, but that does not take away from the absolute moral justification to go to war when a foreign enemy attacks your civilians.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27122 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 16:13, Bill Hilly wrote: ?? what do you mean by first war?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Posted: Jul 14, 2012 11:57 am 
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