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mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 16:29, Woland wrote:
Hi landmark, whether the war was well executed or not, well strategized or not, did not come into your initial definition of a just war. Based on what you indicated were the phenomena that would justify a war, 9/11 fit the bill. You're arguing that the response was not strategically or even tactically optimal, and that the response did not achieve the results you would have desired, but that does not take away from the absolute moral justification to go to war when a foreign enemy attacks your civilians.


I agree with you a hundred percent. How does it feel to have the backing of a generally anti-war leftist like me?

When attacked we must defend. That is, to my mind, the only time that war is justifiable. And our defense should be so definitive (withing the boundaries of the rules of war) that future attacks are severely discouraged.
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-07-14 16:36, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-14 16:13, Bill Hilly wrote:
What was the reason or cause of the first war, and who started or instigated it?

This ain't a trivia question. I'm asking for real.


?? what do you mean by first war?


I think he's referring to the war that wasn't preceded by any other wars.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Woland
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Hi Bob,

Good thoughts, indeed!

Quote:
I agree with you a hundred percent. How does it feel to have the backing of a generally anti-war leftist like me?


It feels great. But greater coming from you, personally. (Remember, I was once a generally anti-war leftist, too. And I would say that I am still generally anti-war - as were Grant, Lee, and Wellington, as I mentioned, above.)

Your comment that the response must be definitive is well within the tradition of the usual "American way of war," at least since Grant at Fort Donelson. The reason that Germany and Japan became peaceful, democratic nations was in large measure because they definitively understood what were the definitive consequences of their previous decisions. The failure to seek a definitive conclusion only prolongs the conflict and compounds the problem.
mastermindreader
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The First War aka "The War that Started all Wars," was fought approximately 2.5 million years ago in or around present day Ethiopia.

Little is known about it except that it was fought on a Thursday afternoon and had something to do with a stolen keeshka and a woman named Lucy who had been previously accused of playing "hide the keeshka" with members of a neighboring tribe.

The owner of the keeshka was never identified.

The historic event has been memorialized in song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au_jJmsfdMs
Dr. Van Van Mojo
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On 2012-07-14 16:13, Bill Hilly wrote:
What was the reason or cause of the first war, and who started or instigated it?

This ain't a trivia question. I'm asking for real.


The Battle of Megiddo is the first battle that was recorded in detail and for posterity. Pharaoh Thutmose III's military scribe inscribed it in hieroglyphs at Thutmose's temple at Karnak, Thebes (now Luxor). Not only is this the first extant, detailed battle description, but it is the first written reference to the religiously important Megiddo: Megiddo is also known as Armageddon.
Historically, Megiddo was an important city because it overlooked the route from Egypt through Syria to Mesopotamia. If an enemy of Egypt controlled Megiddo, it could block the pharaoh from reaching the rest of his empire.

In approximately 1479 B.C., Thutmose III, pharaoh of Egypt, led an expedition against the prince of Kadesh who was in Megiddo.

The prince of Kadesh (which is on the River Orontes), backed by the king of Mitanni, made a coalition with the heads of Egypt's vassal cities of northern Palestine and Syria. Kadesh was in charge. After forming the coalition, the cities openly rebelled against Egypt. In retaliation, Thutmose III attacked.
Bill Hilly
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 17:00, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-14 16:36, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-14 16:13, Bill Hilly wrote:
What was the reason or cause of the first war, and who started or instigated it?

This ain't a trivia question. I'm asking for real.


?? what do you mean by first war?


I think he's referring to the war that wasn't preceded by any other wars.

Yes, that's what I meant. But I fear it might turn the thread into a theological one. Something I didn't intend. But if it's possible to refer to only universally accepted history documents, that would be the war I meant.
Bill Hilly
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 17:13, mastermindreader wrote:
The First War aka "The War that Started all Wars," was fought approximately 2.5 million years ago in or around present day Ethiopia.

Little is known about it except that it was fought on a Thursday afternoon and had something to do with a stolen keeshka and a woman named Lucy who had been previously accused of playing "hide the keeshka" with members of a neighboring tribe.

The owner of the keeshka was never identified.

The historic event has been memorialized in song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au_jJmsfdMs[/quote]
The second I read the word "keeshka" I thought of that. Sad, ain't it?
Bill Hilly
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 17:20, Dr. Van Van Mojo wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-14 16:13, Bill Hilly wrote:
What was the reason or cause of the first war, and who started or instigated it?

This ain't a trivia question. I'm asking for real.


The Battle of Megiddo is the first battle that was recorded in detail and for posterity. Pharaoh Thutmose III's military scribe inscribed it in hieroglyphs at Thutmose's temple at Karnak, Thebes (now Luxor). Not only is this the first extant, detailed battle description, but it is the first written reference to the religiously important Megiddo: Megiddo is also known as Armageddon.
Historically, Megiddo was an important city because it overlooked the route from Egypt through Syria to Mesopotamia. If an enemy of Egypt controlled Megiddo, it could block the pharaoh from reaching the rest of his empire.

In approximately 1479 B.C., Thutmose III, pharaoh of Egypt, led an expedition against the prince of Kadesh who was in Megiddo.

The prince of Kadesh (which is on the River Orontes), backed by the king of Mitanni, made a coalition with the heads of Egypt's vassal cities of northern Palestine and Syria. Kadesh was in charge. After forming the coalition, the cities openly rebelled against Egypt. In retaliation, Thutmose III attacked.
mastermindreader
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As an addendum to my previous post it should be noted that the so-called "Keeshka War" is sometimes also known as the "Everybody Loves Lucy and That's the Problem War."
gdw
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Ok, there is a BIG difference between "defence" and "retaliation."

Don't kid yourself into thinking the former justifies the latter.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 13:38, Woland wrote:
OK, landmark: on September 11th, 2001, our lives were on the line; our bodies were on fire; our limbs were blown apart; our children were mutilated. Our just and measured response to that should have been, and should continue to be, nothing less than the total defeat of the enemies who did this -- to civilians. Unconditional, and without limit.


9/11 was retaliation. History did not start that day.
The people who did it died the same day.

A better response might have been to, oh, I don't know, maybe STOP killing people in foreign countries. NOT going into MORE countries, and killing MORE people.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
mastermindreader
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"The people who did it died the same day."

Amazing how you forget about those who planned and ordered the attack. They are equally "the people who did it."

Are you seriously suggesting that soldiers are responsible for the war?
landmark
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On 2012-07-14 17:05, Woland wrote:
(Remember, I was once a generally anti-war leftist, too. And I would say that I am still generally anti-war - as were Grant, Lee, and Wellington, as I mentioned, above.)


Please, you are not anti-war. Face it, you glory in it, and feel it is often necessary. You do not see war as a "last resort."

For both Bob and yourself: I was not just talking about the tactics and strategy of the war on Afghanistan and Iraq. I am talking about the totally criminal nature of waging war on peoples who have not attacked you!



Critter, the ICC
Bill Hilly
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 17:20, Dr. Van Van Mojo wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-14 16:13, Bill Hilly wrote:
What was the reason or cause of the first war, and who started or instigated it?

This ain't a trivia question. I'm asking for real.


The Battle of Megiddo is the first battle that was recorded in detail and for posterity. Pharaoh Thutmose III's military scribe inscribed it in hieroglyphs at Thutmose's temple at Karnak, Thebes (now Luxor). Not only is this the first extant, detailed battle description, but it is the first written reference to the religiously important Megiddo: Megiddo is also known as Armageddon.
Historically, Megiddo was an important city because it overlooked the route from Egypt through Syria to Mesopotamia. If an enemy of Egypt controlled Megiddo, it could block the pharaoh from reaching the rest of his empire.

In approximately 1479 B.C., Thutmose III, pharaoh of Egypt, led an expedition against the prince of Kadesh who was in Megiddo.

The prince of Kadesh (which is on the River Orontes), backed by the king of Mitanni, made a coalition with the heads of Egypt's vassal cities of northern Palestine and Syria. Kadesh was in charge. After forming the coalition, the cities openly rebelled against Egypt. In retaliation, Thutmose III attacked.

Man, I wrote a good reply to this, but it didn't show up. Honest. Anyway, I said that I was impressed if you actually knew that vs. giving it a wiki look. I didn't know any of that, but then my kin hail from Bug Tussle which is a fer piece from Egypt.

Thanks for the info.
mastermindreader
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And I'm only talking about waging defensive war on those who have attacked us.
gdw
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On 2012-07-14 17:46, mastermindreader wrote:
And I'm only talking about waging defensive war on those who have attacked us.


If you are waging it on them, it's not defence.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 17:43, mastermindreader wrote:
"The people who did it died the same day."

Amazing how you forget about those who planned and ordered the attack. They are equally "the people who did it."

Are you seriously suggesting that soldiers are responsible for the war?


Didn't forget about them at all. The people who actually killed thousands on that day are all dead. I'm not ignoring the responsibility of those otherwise involved. Just saying killing hundreds of thousands of people was not the correct response.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
tommy
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You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
landmark
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 17:46, mastermindreader wrote:
And I'm only talking about waging defensive war on those who have attacked us.

Saddam Hussein attacked us? Really? Why not hit Canada while we're at it, and be done with it for once and for all? The attackers were 15 Saudis, two from the UAE, one Egyptian and one from Lebanon. They were funded by the Saudi princes, but even then dropping bombs on the innocent Saudi people would be a last resort. The Taliban was basically created by the Pakistan ISI, which in turn is funded by the US, so why not drop bombs on the White House?

Critter, my reply to you got cut off about the ICC--as long as the biggest criminals refuse to abide by its decisions, and other countries have no real enforcement powers against them, it's kind of pointless.
mastermindreader
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On 2012-07-14 17:59, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-14 17:46, mastermindreader wrote:
And I'm only talking about waging defensive war on those who have attacked us.


If you are waging it on them, it's not defence.


If a private army from a neighboring village conducts a sneak attack on your sovereign anarchist cooperative and, after destroying everything and killing a bunch of your people, they run back to their village promising to return again tomorrow, it is not self-defense to take proactive measures to assure they are unable to do it again?
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