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Jonathan Townsend
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Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 17:46, mastermindreader wrote:
And I'm only talking about waging defensive war on those who have attacked us.


The picture of a kitty they posted offends your sensibilities and threatens to corrupt the youth in your country so you must do whatever it takes to ensure they will never post anything to any site you or yours or future generations might come across and cause you suffering? And if that means cutting off hands so they can't type and then bombing them back into the stone age so they can't hurt others with their pictures of kitties... so be it - right?

hmmm?

a better pun on the principle (if someday outgrown) might be: There's no defense for a bad offense. Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Steve_Mollett
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Eh, so I've made
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Somehow I perceive a major difference between pillaging and promising to repeat that action on the morrow, and putting up a picture of a kitty.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
mastermindreader
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I think I clearly said defending against those "who have attacked us." I'm not talking about waging war against those who may have offended our sensibilities. So your response pretty well misses the point entirely.

From the film, The Untouchables, here's a better way of putting it:

Quote:

Malone: You wanna know how to get Capone? They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That's* the *Chicago* way! And that's how you get Capone. Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that? I'm offering you a deal. Do you want this deal?
Ness: I have sworn to capture this man with all legal powers at my disposal and I will do so.

Malone: Well, the Lord hates a coward.

[jabs Ness with his hand, and Ness shakes it]

Malone: Do you know what a blood oath is, Mr. Ness?

Ness: Yes.

Malone: Good, 'cause you just took one.
gdw
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Bob, again, there's a difference between retaliation, and defence.
There's also a difference between proactive attacking, and defence.

You can prepare to defend yourself against the promised attack, but to aggress against them is just that, aggressing against them.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Steve_Mollett
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Eh, so I've made
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So Washington should have stayed on his side of the Delaware?
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 18:51, mastermindreader wrote:
I think I clearly said defending against those "who have attacked us."...


Today, an attack on our "national interests" qualifies.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Woland
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It has always qualified, Jonathan. But that's not what we were talking about. Here was a situation that absolutely met the specifics that landmark mentioned as defining a just war. The thing is, once a war has started, there are no limits. That's why it is a war, and not a legal proceeding. That's why war is dangerous, ugly, and a last resort. It's why Wellington said that the only thing worse than winning a battle, is losing a battle.

You can have peace any time you want. Just surrender.
Jeff J.
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Isn't a conflict with Iran close at hand? We've been moving up our military recently in the area by land and sea, and they aren't exactly open to discussion.
tommy
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I think it may be better to talk of wars that are ancient rather than wars in our lifetime, because looking at war in our liftime gets personal and makes it difficult to talk about the subject of war objectively.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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War. What a subject.

I am not a fan. I think it should be a last resort, but all too often it is not that far down the list.

Sure there are no absolutes. Can't say it isn't useful, but I can say recently it certainly has not served a productive purpose.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Woland
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That's not a bad idea, tommy. Did you ever hear it said that the only just war was the Trojan War, because it was fought over a woman, and the men knew what they were fighting for.
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 19:19, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-14 18:51, mastermindreader wrote:
I think I clearly said defending against those "who have attacked us."...


Today, an attack on our "national interests" qualifies.


Sorry to hear that I'm not entitled to mean what I said, rather than having to accept your interpretation of it.
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 19:04, gdw wrote:
Bob, again, there's a difference between retaliation, and defence.
There's also a difference between proactive attacking, and defence.

You can prepare to defend yourself against the promised attack, but to aggress against them is just that, aggressing against them.


So you would think it better to await the promised attack (in which more of your women, children and property will certainly be lost) rather than to affirmatively defend by taking the fight to them and thus protecting your own people at home?

Interesting. You'd rather have the inevitable fight in your house. I'd rather take it to theirs.
Jeff J.
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 19:35, tommy wrote:
I think it may be better to talk of wars that are ancient rather than wars in our lifetime, because looking at war in our liftime gets personal and makes it difficult to talk about the subject of war objectively.


I agree. I think someone broke into my office and typed that without my knowledge....
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 19:51, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-14 19:04, gdw wrote:
Bob, again, there's a difference between retaliation, and defence.
There's also a difference between proactive attacking, and defence.

You can prepare to defend yourself against the promised attack, but to aggress against them is just that, aggressing against them.


So you would think it better to await the promised attack (in which more of your women, children and property will certainly be lost) rather than to affirmatively defend by taking the fight to them and thus protecting your own people at home?

Interesting. You'd rather have the inevitable fight in your house. I'd rather take it to theirs.


You have no right to take it to their's.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
mastermindreader
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Glenn-

By your logic, after 9/11 we should have just built up our defense and prepared to shoot down any more planes (with our people on them) they happened to send our way.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 19:48, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-14 19:19, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-14 18:51, mastermindreader wrote:
I think I clearly said defending against those "who have attacked us."...


Today, an attack on our "national interests" qualifies.


Sorry to hear that I'm not entitled to mean what I said, rather than having to accept your interpretation of it.


Not my interpretation, just citing our our foreign policy.
Here's a discussion for folks new to the term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_interests
...to all the coins I've dropped here
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 19:55, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-14 19:51, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-14 19:04, gdw wrote:
Bob, again, there's a difference between retaliation, and defence.
There's also a difference between proactive attacking, and defence.

You can prepare to defend yourself against the promised attack, but to aggress against them is just that, aggressing against them.


So you would think it better to await the promised attack (in which more of your women, children and property will certainly be lost) rather than to affirmatively defend by taking the fight to them and thus protecting your own people at home?

Interesting. You'd rather have the inevitable fight in your house. I'd rather take it to theirs.


You have no right to take it to their's.


I'm sure glad you weren't in charge when Pearl Harbor was attacked. I can just hear you now- "Now stop that! If you come here again and kill more of us we are going to have to fight back! Don't worry, though, we won't attack you."
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 19:55, mastermindreader wrote:
Glenn-

By your logic, after 9/11 we should have just built up our defense and prepared to shoot down any more planes (with our people on them) they happened to send our way.


No, perhaps change the FAA policies that required people to cooperate with hijackers, and thus facilitated the attacks? Maybe allow pilots to be armed? That would be one of the few things done that actually made people safer.

Also, we saw in that one day, one of the other biggest changes, and that was in the mentality of people, as was seen on flight 93.

In fact, all of the REAL attempts on planes since 9/11 have been stopped by passengers, or the "terrorist's" own incompetence.

Lastly, or rather what should have been done first, get the **** out of the middle east.

So, care to try again?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2012-07-14 20:11, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-14 19:55, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-14 19:51, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-14 19:04, gdw wrote:
Bob, again, there's a difference between retaliation, and defence.
There's also a difference between proactive attacking, and defence.

You can prepare to defend yourself against the promised attack, but to aggress against them is just that, aggressing against them.


So you would think it better to await the promised attack (in which more of your women, children and property will certainly be lost) rather than to affirmatively defend by taking the fight to them and thus protecting your own people at home?

Interesting. You'd rather have the inevitable fight in your house. I'd rather take it to theirs.


You have no right to take it to their's.


I'm sure glad you weren't in charge when Pearl Harbor was attacked. I can just hear you now- "Now stop that! If you come here again and kill more of us we are going to have to fight back! Don't worry, though, we won't attack you."


Right, Pearl Harbor, or maybe I wouldn't have done everything in my power to try to provoke Japan into attacking in the first place?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
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