The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Sportsmanlike (?) dumping (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page 1~2~3~4~5~6~7 [Next]
S2000magician
View Profile
Inner circle
Yorba Linda, CA
3469 Posts

Profile of S2000magician
There's quite a bit of furore over the women's Olympic badminton players who deliberately lost matches to ensure that they would play specific teams in the quarterfinals, expecting that that would give them a better chance to make it to the semifinals or finals.

Over the years, there have been many similar incidents in, of all things, contract bridge, with arguments back and forth on whether it's good sportsmanship or not.

What do you think?

Personally, I think that a team's sportsmanlike duty is to try to do the best that they can overall. If the conditions of contest are so poorly designed that it's in a team's best overall interest to lose a particular match, that indicates stupidity on the part of the contest organizers, and good sportsmanship demands that the team throw the match to have a better overall chance. I think it's abhorrant - don't get me wrong - but the blame rests with the organizers, not with the team that takes legitimate advantage of poor conditions of contest.
GlenD
View Profile
Inner circle
LosAngeles, Ca
1298 Posts

Profile of GlenD
The olympics suck. Just my opinion.
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin

"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!)
TonyB2009
View Profile
Inner circle
5006 Posts

Profile of TonyB2009
To me arrogance is a key part of the make-up of a successful sports person. I was never a good boxer, but if I stepped into a ring with Mike Tyson, until I hit the canvas I would be convinced I could take him. That is why the sight of teams trying to lose so that they could avoid the top seeds is so repugnant. A true sports person would be trying to win to force a match with the top seed, because they would be arrogant enough to believe in themselves.

I am glad they were sent home.
motown
View Profile
Inner circle
Atlanta by way of Detroit
5968 Posts

Profile of motown
So, it's the organizer fault that teams purposely tried to lose.

That make's no sense.
"If you ever write anything about me after I'm gone, I will come back and haunt you."
– Karl Germain
NicholasD
View Profile
Inner circle
1460 Posts

Profile of NicholasD
While I believe in going all out when competing, it could be construed as strategy. So, maybe there should be specific rules to address this type of situation.
LobowolfXXX
View Profile
Inner circle
La Famiglia
1191 Posts

Profile of LobowolfXXX
I'm in agreement with the OP. It's stupid to create a format that rewards losing on purpose, and it's easily avoidable.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
S2000magician
View Profile
Inner circle
Yorba Linda, CA
3469 Posts

Profile of S2000magician
Quote:
On 2012-08-02 00:03, motown wrote:
So, it's the organizer fault that teams purposely tried to lose.

That make's no sense.

It makes more sense that sticking that apostrophe in "makes".

;)

If the conditions of contest say that if you win this match you play the toughest team in the quarterfinals and are, therefore, unlikely to make it to the semifinal (medal) round, but if you lose this match you will play the easiest team in the quarterfinals and are, therefore, likely to make it to the medal round, and your ultimate goal is to have the greatest chance of winning a medal, then you should try to lose this match. Those conditions are stupid, and would be the fault of the organizer. Pretty straightforward.
S2000magician
View Profile
Inner circle
Yorba Linda, CA
3469 Posts

Profile of S2000magician
Quote:
On 2012-08-01 21:18, TonyB2009 wrote:
To me arrogance is a key part of the make-up of a successful sports person.

But is arrogance a necessary component of sportsmanship?
MobilityBundle
View Profile
Regular user
Las Vegas/Boston
120 Posts

Profile of MobilityBundle
They could make rules against it, but those rules are pretty tough to enforce in general.

The only really competitive endeavor I know well is chess. I can't think of a case where purposefully losing a game provides a longer-term advantage in a tournament, there is a similar phenomenon called a "grandmaster draw." That's where neither player really tries to win, and agree to a draw after some very short number of moves. Grandmaster draws are bummers for the fans. When you see two titans sit down across the board from each other, you want to see them create something beautiful. At the same time, it's easy to understand why grandmaster draws happen.

I think it's the same with badminton, or really ANY spectator sport. In my mind, the point behind the olympics isn't just to find out who the best athlete or team is in a particular sport. It's to provide a spectacle for fans to enjoy, AND to find out who the best athlete or team is. (After all, if the olympics were held in secret, with only the results being published, it obviously wouldn't garner as much attention as it does now.) To that end, it's kind of morally incumbent on the competitors to help provide a bit of spectacle. But really, they only have fans to answer to... and I have no idea what badminton fans tolerate. Probably a lot. After all, they're badminton fans. Smile
Matthew W
View Profile
Inner circle
New York
2456 Posts

Profile of Matthew W
This thread is not as funny as the title lead me to think it would be.
-Matt
stoneunhinged
View Profile
Inner circle
3079 Posts

Profile of stoneunhinged
How about intentional walks in baseball and softball? It's part of the overall strategy to win the game. It seems to me that it is completely legitimate strategy to treat a tournament as a single event.

That said, it's not cricket.

Read here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underarm_bo......_of_1981
S2000magician
View Profile
Inner circle
Yorba Linda, CA
3469 Posts

Profile of S2000magician
Quote:
On 2012-08-02 02:50, MobilityBundle wrote:
. . . I have no idea what badminton fans tolerate. Probably a lot. After all, they're badminton fans. Smile

Out of curiosity, have you ever played / watched Olympic badminton?

Without being overly dramatic, it's a grueling sport, every bit as exhausting as tennis or racketball.

When I was at University, I used to go to a local community college to play badminton against some of the best players in the country. (Since then, they've built the Orange County Badminton Club in Orange, CA: most of the US Olympics players train there.) I would come out of a match dripping wet and exhausted. This ain't the backyard game with cousin Joey.
critter
View Profile
Inner circle
Spokane, WA
2551 Posts

Profile of critter
It's kind of like tennis, but with an aerodynamically challenged target. So, tennis in slow motion Smile
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
S2000magician
View Profile
Inner circle
Yorba Linda, CA
3469 Posts

Profile of S2000magician
The motion of the shuttlecock might be slow (except right off the racket: 200 mph!), but the motion of the players is anything but.
Slide
View Profile
Special user
533 Posts

Profile of Slide
"If the conditions of contest say that if you win this match you play the toughest team in the quarterfinals and are, therefore, unlikely to make it to the semifinal (medal) round, but if you lose this match you will play the easiest team in the quarterfinals and are, therefore, likely to make it to the medal round, and your ultimate goal is to have the greatest chance of winning a medal, then you should try to lose this match. Those conditions are stupid, and would be the fault of the organizer."


But isn't that the way all contests like this are played. Someone has to play the toughest team early on, so it is a strategy that anyone could take. I don't how you could organize it any differently other than to say: toughest teams don't play at all until the final rounds. Strategy is strategy. Sometimes retreat is a better strategy. Sometimes losing is a better strategy. If a pitcher intensionally walks a great hitter, we don't complain that the pitcher is not doing the right thing by not trying strike out the player. Seems like the same thing to me.

Besides, who gives a crap about badminton? Smile I was more surprised to learn it was an olympic event.
balducci
View Profile
Loyal user
Canada
230 Posts

Profile of balducci
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentar......4456781/

The expulsion of eight badminton players from the London Olympics for deliberately attempting to lose their matches sends the right message while raising an interesting question about what it means to compete. The women’s doubles teams – one from China, one from Indonesia and two from South Korea – were trying to manipulate the outcome of the round-robin stage of the tournament; by losing their games, they would have guaranteed themselves a weaker opponent in the first round of the knockout stage. They refused to exert themselves and deliberately missed easy shots, in spite of officials’ repeated warnings to play to the best of their abilities.

The question this raises is whether athletes should be punished for strategically losing a battle in order to win the war. The point of high-level competition is, after all, to win it all, and this is no less true in the Olympics than it is in professional sports. In baseball, pitchers routinely walk batters on purpose; in many pro sports, teams that are ensured a spot in the playoffs won’t field their best players for the final game of the regular season because they want to rest them for the more important games ahead. In chess, the deliberate sacrifice of a pawn is accepted strategy.

So what is the badminton players’ crime? Simple: In the examples mentioned above, nobody deliberately sets out to lose a game by performing badly. To compete under the terms of good sportsmanship means to give your all to win the match at hand, even if – maybe especially if – it means your next opponent will be tougher. Spectators demand it, the rules require it, and sporting ethics make it non-optional. The eight badminton players tried to rig the outcome of their matches; the fact they are going home in disgrace says everything we need to know about what it means to compete with honour.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
balducci
View Profile
Loyal user
Canada
230 Posts

Profile of balducci
Fwiw, apparently badminton was using a new group format at the games:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/ol......4456934/

Unlike tennis, where players are seeded and then knock each other out in successive games, badminton is using a group format for the first time. Under the system, players are put into groups and the top finishers in each pool qualify for an elimination round.

The doubles event consisted of 16 teams, including two teams each from China and South Korea, seeded by ranking across four pools.

The fixing began after Juhl and Pedersen upset the Chinese team of Tian Qing and Zhao Yunlei in the preliminary round, leaving the Danes in first place in their pool and China second.

It meant that in the elimination round, the top Chinese team of Wang and Yu would have played Tian and Zhao in the quarter-final. To avoid that, Wang and Yu purposely lost their final match against a South Korean team Tuesday.

When the South Koreans saw that, they did the same thing in their match with the Indonesians, who followed suit. The result was all four teams trying to lose on Tuesday to improve their chances in the elimination round.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
critter
View Profile
Inner circle
Spokane, WA
2551 Posts

Profile of critter
I was only teasing. I'd probably suck at bad mint tea. I totally suck at ping pong.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
TonyB2009
View Profile
Inner circle
5006 Posts

Profile of TonyB2009
Quote:
On 2012-08-02 10:35, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-08-02 02:50, MobilityBundle wrote:
. . . I have no idea what badminton fans tolerate. Probably a lot. After all, they're badminton fans. Smile

Out of curiosity, have you ever played / watched Olympic badminton?

Without being overly dramatic, it's a grueling sport, every bit as exhausting as tennis or racketball.

And a far sight easier than boxing, judo, gymnastics, marathon running, cycling, triathlon, and many of the other sports in the olympics.

In answer to your earlier point, yes I believe arrogance is a key element in the make-up of any serious sports competitor. Without it, you are making up numbers. With it, you are competing for the medals.
LobowolfXXX
View Profile
Inner circle
La Famiglia
1191 Posts

Profile of LobowolfXXX
Quote:
On 2012-08-02 11:40, Slide wrote:
"If the conditions of contest say that if you win this match you play the toughest team in the quarterfinals and are, therefore, unlikely to make it to the semifinal (medal) round, but if you lose this match you will play the easiest team in the quarterfinals and are, therefore, likely to make it to the medal round, and your ultimate goal is to have the greatest chance of winning a medal, then you should try to lose this match. Those conditions are stupid, and would be the fault of the organizer."


But isn't that the way all contests like this are played. Someone has to play the toughest team early on, so it is a strategy that anyone could take. I don't how you could organize it any differently other than to say: toughest teams don't play at all until the final rounds. Strategy is strategy. Sometimes retreat is a better strategy. Sometimes losing is a better strategy. If a pitcher intensionally walks a great hitter, we don't complain that the pitcher is not doing the right thing by not trying strike out the player. Seems like the same thing to me.

Besides, who gives a crap about badminton? Smile I was more surprised to learn it was an olympic event.


In the world championships in bridge, for instance, the team that does best in a round-robin stage gets to choose its opponent in the next (knockout) phase; the team that does second-best chooses from those remaining, and so on. So a loss by China (which precipitated this mess) wouldn't incentivize anyone to lose; rather, they'd all be trying to win so they could select an opponent other than China.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Sportsmanlike (?) dumping (0 Likes)
 Go to page 1~2~3~4~5~6~7 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.23 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL