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LobowolfXXX
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Thanks! Good catch.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Mr. Mystoffelees
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Quote:
On 2012-08-03 11:17, TonyB2009 wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-08-03 01:37, S2000magician wrote:
Are we really going to get into a discussion of which sports belong in the Olympics based solely on . . . what? . . . the number of calories burned per minute?

No - I was only ribbing you.

But on a serious note, there are far too many sports in the Olympics in my view. I think the whole thing could be simplified. One racket sport instead of three, one wrestling discipline instead of three, etc. And get rid of the stupid sports like beach vollyball (only included for the obvious reason), ping pong, pairs diving, etc. And get rid of the sports that only one or two countries play to a sufficiently high level to make them competitive. For instance America has one thirteen out of sixteen titles at mens basketball and six out of eight at women's. Why keep up the charade? It is not an international sport, so drop it from the schedule.


I agree with most of this, but "ping pong"? Smile

And while you are at it, get rid of events that need judges.

As to the OP, there is enough fault to go around. The rules should have been better thought out, but that does not excuse throwing matches.

Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
S2000magician
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Quote:
On 2012-08-04 18:21, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote:
As to the OP, there is enough fault to go around. The rules should have been better thought out, but that does not excuse throwing matches.

I agree that there is enough fault to go around. I disagree, however, with the premise that throwing matches (under the circumstances) is an action that needs an excuse.
S2000magician
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Out of curiosity, what do y'all think of Ali's rope-a-dope?
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Quote:
On 2012-08-04 19:29, S2000magician wrote:
Out of curiosity, what do y'all think of Ali's rope-a-dope?

Tactics in one bout versus practices in a series of matches?
The rope-a-dope was basically tortoise and hare.
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tommy
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I thought it genius.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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S2000magician
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On 2012-08-04 19:45, tommy wrote:
I thought it genius.

Unsportsmanlike genius?
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-08-04 19:29, S2000magician wrote:
Out of curiosity, what do y'all think of Ali's rope-a-dope?


Brilliant strategy. But I don't see how it relates because it was his intention to wear Foreman out and then beat him, not to throw the fight.

You'll recall what happened to Foreman after Ali rope-a-doped him for several rounds. He never knew what hit him.

One of my favorite fights of all time.
S2000magician
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Quote:
On 2012-08-04 20:28, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-08-04 19:29, S2000magician wrote:
Out of curiosity, what do y'all think of Ali's rope-a-dope?

Brilliant strategy.

I agree.

Quote:
On 2012-08-04 20:28, mastermindreader wrote:
But I don't see how it relates because it was his intention to wear Foreman out and then beat him, not to throw the fight.

Is it possible to consider each round as a mini-fight? It was his intention to lose a few rounds - mini-fights - to make it easier to win the match.

(If you want to argue that the difference is that Ali had the same opponent for all the rounds whereas the badminton players would have had different opponents, I'll counter that a tired George Foreman isn't the same opponent as a vigorous George Foreman, and that Ali (probably) couldn't have beaten the latter.)
acesover
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Yea, well just about all good coaches take advantage of a teams or single oponents weakness. That is what makes them a good coach. If it is football and the team has a great pass defense they go to the run. You do not play to an opponents strengh, that would be rather of silly. Also good coaches don't dump or shave points.
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mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-08-04 22:23, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-08-04 20:28, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-08-04 19:29, S2000magician wrote:
Out of curiosity, what do y'all think of Ali's rope-a-dope?

Brilliant strategy.

I agree.

Quote:
On 2012-08-04 20:28, mastermindreader wrote:
But I don't see how it relates because it was his intention to wear Foreman out and then beat him, not to throw the fight.

Is it possible to consider each round as a mini-fight? It was his intention to lose a few rounds - mini-fights - to make it easier to win the match.

(If you want to argue that the difference is that Ali had the same opponent for all the rounds whereas the badminton players would have had different opponents, I'll counter that a tired George Foreman isn't the same opponent as a vigorous George Foreman, and that Ali (probably) couldn't have beaten the latter.)


And I'd retort that that is a lame argument. Smile The fact is that Ali DID beat the "vigorous" George Foreman by rope-a-doping him. It was Ali who first tired Foreman out and then knocked him out.

The comparison to the badminton matches just doesn't work.
acesover
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(If you want to argue that the difference is that Ali had the same opponent for all the rounds whereas the badminton players would have had different opponents, I'll counter that a tired George Foreman isn't the same opponent as a vigorous George Foreman, and that Ali (probably) couldn't have beaten the latter.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lot of suposistion there that can never proved nor disproved either way. Who was the Greatest? Ali. Again can never be proved nor disproved. It is all opinion. Just like beauty, all in the eyes of the beholder. Almost hesitate to say it, but I will. Believe what you want. Smile In the scheme of things what we believe or disbelieve does not mean a whole lot.

One thing for sure is Howard Cosell helped make Ali. Not taking away from Ali or Howard, because I think Ali was fantastsic. Could Ali beat Foreman? I like to think so. Do I know for sure he could do it with any regulariity? No I don't know. We could ask Foreman and Ali. Do you think that would answer the question? Smile

If I am not mistaken wasn't Ali much older than Foreman.
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S2000magician
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Quote:
On 2012-08-04 23:30, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-08-04 22:23, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-08-04 20:28, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-08-04 19:29, S2000magician wrote:
Out of curiosity, what do y'all think of Ali's rope-a-dope?

Brilliant strategy.

I agree.

Quote:
On 2012-08-04 20:28, mastermindreader wrote:
But I don't see how it relates because it was his intention to wear Foreman out and then beat him, not to throw the fight.

Is it possible to consider each round as a mini-fight? It was his intention to lose a few rounds - mini-fights - to make it easier to win the match.

(If you want to argue that the difference is that Ali had the same opponent for all the rounds whereas the badminton players would have had different opponents, I'll counter that a tired George Foreman isn't the same opponent as a vigorous George Foreman, and that Ali (probably) couldn't have beaten the latter.)

And I'd retort that that is a lame argument.

But you didn't answer the question.
mastermindreader
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The thing that is wrong with the argument about the rope-a-dope is that it WASN'T a matter of "throwing" rounds at all, it was a deliberate tactic to wear Foreman out. If you watch the fight, you'll note that Ali did, in fact, score punches several times out of the "rope-a-dope" position. And while he was leaning against the ropes and covering up he was taunting and mocking Foreman with comments like "Is that all you got, George?" That, coupled with the fact that in the early rounds Ali scored repeatedly with a right lead - considered insulting and dismissive of Foreman's skills - infuriated Foreman and caused him to waste countless punches, nearly all of which were effectively deflected by Ali.

It was a cumulative tactic that eventually lead to Foreman being knocked out by an invigorated Ali. (Who's fusillade of punches in the last round provided dramatic proof that Foreman's punches had done little damage, except to himself.)

So no- rounds are not "mini-matches," nor can the rounds in which Ali rope-a-doped Foreman be considered "thrown."
S2000magician
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And I'd counter that Ali let Foreman beat himself. (Not solely, of course, but largely.) Ali couldn't have won without Foreman's enthusiastic cooperation.

Again, a brilliant strategy.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-08-04 23:31, acesover wrote:
If I am not mistaken wasn't Ali much older than Foreman.


Yes he is...his gold medal came 8 years before Foreman's; they're 7 years apart in age. Foreman is actually very close to Larry Holmes's age (though he peaked much earlier. The first time, anyway).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-08-04 23:54, S2000magician wrote:
And I'd counter that Ali let Foreman beat himself. (Not solely, of course, but largely.) Ali couldn't have won without Foreman's enthusiastic cooperation.

Again, a brilliant strategy.


So I guess you've conceded, then, that Ali wasn't "throwing" rounds in a manner even remotely analogous to what happened when the badminton teams just intentionally kept hitting the birdie into the net in an attempt to actually lose games?

And Ali actually taunted and psyched Foreman into going for an early knock-out. You have to remember that Foreman was accustomed to winning his fights in just two or three rounds. It wasn't that Foreman was "cooperating" with Ali, it's just that he was fighting the only way he knew how.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY3yIIxXvy4&feature=related
S2000magician
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Quote:
On 2012-08-05 00:49, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-08-04 23:54, S2000magician wrote:
And I'd counter that Ali let Foreman beat himself. (Not solely, of course, but largely.) Ali couldn't have won without Foreman's enthusiastic cooperation.

Again, a brilliant strategy.

So I guess you've conceded, then, that Ali wasn't "throwing" rounds in a manner even remotely analogous to what happened when the badminton teams just intentionally kept hitting the birdie into the net in an attempt to actually lose games?

Bad guess. Both are long-term strategies.

Whether you think it's analogous isn't really the point. If you think that the badminton players' behavior was unsportsmanlike, so be it; we disagree. Nothing wrong with that.

Quote:
On 2012-08-05 00:49, mastermindreader wrote:
And Ali actually taunted and psyched Foreman into going for an early knock-out. You have to remember that Foreman was accustomed to winning his fights in just two or three rounds. It wasn't that Foreman was "cooperating" with Ali, it's just that he was fighting the only way he knew how.

Which was the cooperation on which Ali was counting. When Foreman saw that Ali had changed his fighting style, he (or his manager) could have changed his (Foreman's) style. That he didn't is the cooperation to which I refer.
mastermindreader
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No. I haven't expressed an opinion as to whether or not the badminton players' strategy was unsportsmanlike.

The obvious difference, though, is that - in a single competition (a boxing match is NOT a collection of individual matches)- Ali intended to win and, in fact did. The badminton players - in a single match - attempted to lose in order to gain an advantage against a different opponent. Your argument that Foreman became a "different opponent" after he was tired out is creative but not, I'm afraid, very persuasive.
S2000magician
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Quote:
On 2012-08-05 01:24, mastermindreader wrote:
The obvious difference, though, is that - in a single competition (a boxing match is NOT a collection of individual matches) - Ali intended to win . . .

Presumably, the badminton players intended to win (the tournament), and were trying to give themselves the best chance of doing so.

Quote:
On 2012-08-05 01:24, mastermindreader wrote:
. . . in fact did.

Interesting fact, but irrelevant to the discussion.

Quote:
On 2012-08-05 01:24, mastermindreader wrote:
The badminton players - in a single match - attempted to lose in order to gain an advantage against a different opponent.

They weren't trying to gain an advantage against a different opponent per se; they were trying to gain an advantage in when they would play particular opponents. I submit that those ideas are vastly different.

Quote:
On 2012-08-05 01:24, mastermindreader wrote:
Your argument that Foreman became a "different opponent" after he was tired out is creative but not, I'm afraid, very persuasive.

Fair enough. Creativity has its place.

Quote:
On 2012-08-05 01:24, mastermindreader wrote:
No. I haven't expressed an opinion as to whether or not the badminton players' strategy was unsportsmanlike.

What is your opinion, if you don't mind my asking?
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