I really don't want this thread to become about me, but I just wanted to state that I agree with Stone about my first ebook. I came up with a cool effect and a method I was proud of, a magic producer heard about it, saw marketing potential, and it ended up being a bestseller (which also set the bar high for my own expectations of magic sales. I just got really lucky). I was also 14 at the time. Ignorant as I was, I would never have had the sense to turn down someone wanting to produce and sell my magic. I was never in it to make a quick buck, I was legitimately just excited that someone thought an effect of mine was good enough to sell. I do not regret releasing it nor do I think it's a bad product... In fact, I still sell it. Could I have waited? Yes. Should I have waited? Yes. But do you really think someone of that age is prepared to wait?

If it contributed to 'cheapening magic' then it is what it is. But I'm far from the only one. And none of that makes piracy any more right.

Well done, Michael. I'm proud of you.

For the record, I know that you didn't want to make this thread about you. That was MY idea.

Piracy and YouTube exposure are among the most popular topics in the "Right or Wrong" forum. When you started a thread on the same ole same ole, I thought I'd make you change tracks and think along another line.

So...I'm guilty of making it personal.

When you think about it, "Ethics" or "Morality" is always personal. These days.

I'm not defending piracy or saying that it's "right", but I've always taken issue with equating it to "stealing."

At the risk of arguing semantics, "theft" always must necessarily derive the victim of something. If I steal your car I have prevented you from being able to use it; there has been a transfer of possession from one person to another.

The strongest case that can be made for deprivation is to say that the piracy prevented a sale. Michael himself admitted that he was not convinced that someone who pirates his material would have certainly bought a copy if it were not available for free.

I believe very strongly in property rights, and I also accept the basic presmise for "intellectual property" which holds that since your mind is your own therefore your intellectual efforts (ideas) are also yours and so by extention you have the right to develop them materially. You own your inventions.

It just gets really confused when an idea (information) can be duplicated freely or cheaply. And I tend to think that for purely pragmatic reasons, IP laws are doing more harm than good. When a kid who writes a story about Mickey Mouse for a school project can be handed a cease and desist letter from Disney's lawyers we have taken things way too far.

While I respect artists and creators (I am one myself) and I fully support an individuals rights to protect a secret or market an idea or invention I think we need to acknowledge the industries that do not benefit from copyright or patent protection and yet do just fine. This includes the fashion industry (you cannot copyright or patent clothing designs under US law), the food industry (you cannot copyright recipes) and the adult entertainment industries (who by and large have not been able to get support from copyright courts). They have all found ways to be tremendously profitable in spite of not having access to IP protection and they are all billion dollar industries.

One thing is for sure: piracy in magic makes magic more available and more abundant. A lot of magicians don't like that, and I tend to perceive a certain level of elitism amongst those performers who come from a generation where secrets were treated as sacred and passed down from mentor to student and protected for dear life. I don't really relate to that world view, personally, and please understand this is just my opinion. But while I greatly admire the greats that came before us, like Devant and Morritt, and I acknowledge that ideas build upon each other, by today's standards they generally just don't impress me much. And for what it's worth, the vast majority of contemporary material that is published today does not impress me at all. We are living in the information age where ideas and information is extremely cheap, whether we like it or not. I was raised to believe that information and knowledge is, ultimately, a "good thing." Again, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not condoning piracy or trying to call it "good." My only point here is to make the case that magic being "cheap" or secrets being "abundant" is, at the very least, "not bad." And the reason for that is because the only people who are going to take the time to wade through the tremendous amount of information available are people who have a passion for magic. A greater abundance of knowledge must inevitably lead to better magicians, eventually.

Yes yes I know there are so many bad magicians posting youtube videos etc. They're just a bi-product and I don't think they do much harm. Because what's going to come out of all of that garbage are mature magicians in a generation or two who have taken the time to recognize the 99.99% of "cheap" ideas that might have a place here or there but aren't of much use, will have improved upon the 0.01% of really brilliant ideas, refined them and will produce material that will take magic to a whole new level ... and if they care about their secrets, they won't publish them. Nor will they need to publish them to make money because they are, first and foremost, entertainers.

Those are just my ideas, you have my permission to pirate them or throw them out as the cheap trash they may be.

Well, garett, I don't agree much, but I like your style.

Regarding your view of theft, I believe Apple just won a billion-dollar judgment against Samsung without being "deprived" of anything other than what a magic inventor would be deprived of- the exclusive right to use and/or sell their invention.

I am in no good position to debate this, however. All my life, I have had things stolen from me. Coats, bikes, money, whatever literally was not nailed down. I hate thieves. They don't just steal a thing, they steal your attitude, you enthusiasm to create. I spend half my free time trying to remember the combination, where did I put my keys, was the door locked, did I leave my wedding ring on the sink in the men's room. I have had people look at my work on an exam and steal it. I did not lose anything, except perhaps having the highest grade all to myself.

I can not, nor do I wish to, change your attitude. I only wish you did not try to justify, excuse or mitigate theft.

The concept that the distillation of piracy will "take magic to a whole new level" leaves me very sad...

Jim

like the exclusive use of their work, exclusive right to give permission (or not) to use any of their work and the development of their own brand through their work as exclusive and personal property.

Intellectual Property (IP) is protected bu law in many countries. The reason it is protected is to provide a far reward to investors for the risk in developing new technology/music/magic or what ever.

Often you read in popular press about pharmaceutical companies that make enormous profits on a drug that is patent protected. the press will scream that this is un fail, yet fail to axknowledge the numerous projects that have failed and resulted in investements that yielded no profits.

This is no different than magic. Why should a professional magician spent the time and effort to develop new routines or illusions if two weeks after their first show the magic is "revealed" on YouTube or copied by the local amatuer?

True IP should be protected or new magic concepts will not be developed.

Hudson

IMHO the argument in the post above is less than convincing and some of the statements plead for parsing as they are not enthymemes.

"True"? not sure what you mean by that.
IP? let's stick with art here.
"new magic concepts" - please, around here we have folks calling Steve Dusheck's sliding shell a "slippery sam" even after he explained that the name comes from a coin set (that also happens to be magnetic and have two such coins).

"developed"? sure they will. Perhaps not offered for sale on openly advertised markets but the needs of those who do perform will be met so they have reliable material - even if it takes a lifetime of trial and error and generations of students who know better than to go around bragging or gossiping.

First, I must apologize for the numerous spelling errors on my earlier post. It was late at night, I didn't have my glasses on ... No excuse, Sir!

Jonathan, let me restrict my argument to marketed effects and then restate it.

If the creator of a marketed effect is not compensated for developing and sharing (via advertising) that effect with others, then they will have no incentive to develop and market effects in the future. The consequence of this is that fewer effects will be available in the market.

This is one of the reasons for patent and copyright protection and, I believe, a critical component of capitalism. Compensating developers of new effects results in more effects becoming available, the best ones being compensated the most and encouraging the development of new and better effects.

This position my not translate to tricks, routines, or whatever that are not marketed, but I do believe it is wrong to take someone else's ideas and use that idea as your own without permission or credit

Hudson

We have folks selling Steve's shell even now. What about it?
How much of the magic shop would vanish if what was "pirated" by Hoffmann and others by being published without permission simply went away?