I never got into card manipulations as I first felt so few fooled folks and the effect didn't suit my way of performing. I can tell you one thing about Juliana Chen... we went to a movie one night and she took a brand new deck of Bicycle cards and with a little break-in time, while watching the movie, she OWING TO THE INCREDIBLE STRENGTH in her hands, could back palm the full deck.

Pete, I have heard she has incredible strenght in her hands. That is a great story.

Again, those are the wrong steamboats, steamboats from the 1930's were not plastic coated. Yes, Jeff McBride said he used Steamboats, but not the modern steamboats.

The average conversation I've had with just about any professional magician I've ever met.

(me) "What manip cards do you like?"

(magician) "Oh, I love those Murphy's, the Nielson's are good. I've always wanted to try the Marvey cards or the Chen ones."

(me) "So which ones do you use in performance?"

(magician) Shrugs-"Bee backs."

I've got at least one of most manipulation decks ever made and the majority of them are really good. Sometimes I use them, sometimes I don't. The general thing I've found about Neilson's, Murphy's and Marvey's is that they fan great and are good for certain kinds of single productions. They don't have the snap of Bees though and some of the productions I do (like my Sable production) requires more snap. I often go with Bees because after a little breaking in, they are the best all around for the largest variety of moves. If I just wanted to produce two decks from each hand, one after the other and throw in some split fans, I'd probably use manip cards all the time, but for all around manipulation I like something with more heft. Most manipulation cards also don't scale as well.

Experimenting with all of them and figuring out which ones you like is always the best way to go.

Jeb

I am going to have to go with Bill Hegbli on this one. I use Murphy's Manipulation cards, they are "bridge" size but work for me. I like the flesh color backs with no other design on them. However, I do practice with the Bee's because I think they will make my hands stronger just a little faster.

Here is a link for those cards...
http://trevorduffy.co.za/products-page/m......sh-color

Gotta disagree with you on this one. Jeff was a demonstrator at my shop for a few years. I knew him from age 14 on. He actually ordered all of his steamboats from me by the dozen. I always kept them in stock for him while he did the Orange county fair.
Red backed steams, modern stock.

Bill, diplomas mean nothing. Ask any graduate. It's what you do with your knowledge that will seperate yourself. True that Bee cards are very stiff. And they can handle better after a nice dose of fanning powder. And if you have small hands they will be hard to manipulate. Wether or not your hands are weak means nothing. Practice will build hand strength and you will be able to back palm 1/4 a pack of any poker pack. Would Juliana Chen disagree with me? I don't know but if she chimed in on this thread it would be better than you speaking for her. She is also an Asian woman. I've lived in Asia for 10 years and happen to know for a fact that Asian women have small hands. If there is an Asian women that can palm or back palm a poker sized card, id be very very impressed.

Lets talk about entertainment, because that's what I'm into. I am a street performer. I have to deal elements that stage performers don't get the luxery of dealing with. My act must be more versitle that the average indoor entertainer. So with that in mind, I need cards that are easily available. Espically in Asia. Manipulation cards here arent cheap. I need cards that will be durable. Manipulation cards just don't cut it. Arm spreads and card fans arent easy to do with thin manipulation cards, for example. They are just too light. Its not impossible, just much much more difficult. Sometimes I use Bee cards to manipulate, sometimes I use them for a routine. Even a layperson will question a thin flimsy flesh coloured card should they ever pick one from a pack. Please please show me your card splitting in Asias humidity. You never will because it wont ever exist. the moisture from first the humidity then your sweat will cause your manipulation cards to literally crush, wrinkle and fold. But in walks the wonderfull Bee card. Thicker and stiffer, they will hold up to that humidity for several shows before giving in. Manipulation cards have never lasted more than one show in Asias weather. Ive gone several manipulations packs here. No need to give specific names. They have all failed. Only red Bees have lasted.

So, your coming from the Chavez school. I am coming from the school of hard knocks. The school of being practical and the school raw uncensored enertainment. That school teaches that must be able to adjust to every situation.

Be a bit more humble Bill before you say "Only amateurs that do not want to spend more then $3 for a deck use ordinary modern plastic coated Bee cards"

I am a full time professional, I gig all over the world, mostly in Asia. I sometimes do card manipulation. Not all the time because some audiences don't know what the hell a playing card is.

And I fully recommend red Bee backed cards.

I think we all have to agree after recent FISM that in manipulations Asian magicians are way ahead of rest of us and I happen to know most if not all of them. How many of them use Bees ? None.
Does it mean Bees are not good ? No. I used Bees, Steamboat, Aviator, Flesh color manipulation cards, Nielsen deck..... and in last 5 years for single production and backpalm fans I use UGM cards which 99% of Japanese manipulators use. I didn`t try to powder them but wax works well on them.
Personally I don`t understand how any regular deck like Bees can be a better solution than specially produced deck of cards that you can backpalm at once and eliminate 1-2 steals you would have to do with regular decks.

regards,
Bojan Barisic

I bought some of the Seo Color Million Cards http://www.seomagic-usa.com/catalog/prod......ts_id/31 for a color manipulation act I was doing and they are great. I did not wax them but I did powder the cards and they work great.

Where do you get the UGM cards?

David

I buy them from Yamamoto (UGM owner). Whenever I meet him on a convention I buy those decks to have enough for a year or 2. UGM wax is great too if you want to try waxing them.

Thank you, bojanbarisic

With the greatest of respect, how practical is the average FISM act? I'm talking about practicality. The card manipulators use black art card moves which wont cut it anywhere but on a stage with magicians in the audience.

Ugm at Steven's
http://www.stevensmagic.com/index.php?ma......d=111532

Lets talk advantages and disadvantages ... one night, I had a bartender ask me "who is Norm Neilson?" ... I was wondering how he knew this guy, since he is not known in laymen circles. It seems I dropped one of my cards and he had found it. That is when I realized that using flesh backed playing cards was a HUGE disadvantage! So I built up my finger strength and broke in a deck of Bees ... and have been using them ever since.

I'm not sure where you get your information, but I believe it to be very inaccurate ... manipulation decks are for amateurs learning how to manipulate. Once you acquire the skill, you should use real cards that your audience will be familiar with - the kind of cards found in casinos.



-JoeJoe

Thanks Ian. I think I have a couple of those I bought from Seo.

I do appreciate your help.

Just to clarify, the cards are common among MAGICIANS and are sold in magic shops...

Thanks for commenting yin_howe, I had to go back and find your comment previously.

Also note that if you are so skilled as to back palm a full deck of Bee's, then 2 China poker size manipulation/fanning decks stacked together would be no problem for you. Again, bringing more creativity to your presentation if you wish to do so.

I am not a card manipulator, nor a full time magician, but magicians use both regular cards and manipulation cards in their routine don't they? Since, they each have their own advantages in certain situations as already mentioned. After fans, single productions etc with regular Bees, then move to manipulation cards for split fans productions.

Thanks for all of the advice, guys! I found an old stack of my Marveys last night and they work just as well as they ever have! Pity they are no longer manufactured. I'll be looking into the brands recommended here.

That was the short version - he had asked several questions, including "why are they brown". You are missing the point entirely, and that's not my problem to care.





You do see the point - and are very much correct. Another example, you can't do a "blank fan" with 4 indexes.



-JoeJoe