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Roberto Gee Regular user 106 Posts |
It's difficult to take someone's views seriously when they can't even get the name or acronym right. I've never heard of the ELF.
The ALF (Animal Liberation Front) is and always has been an underground extremist organization dedicated to (sometimes misguidedly) freeing animals from what they consider to be horrific laboratory conditions. If you have read any of their materials and documentation, odds are you would agree with them, whether you agree with their tactics or not. Lab scientists mechanically bashing the heads of caged unanaesthesized chimpanzees to study the effects of head injuries? I'm not defending the more extreme actions of either the ALF or PETA. But the educational documentation and publicity efforts of both groups, if studied impartially and verified, are both valuable and sobering. Knee-jerk reactions don't cut it, in this age of instant information and research afforded on the internet. It's easy enough to inform oneself, and to verify what's true and what's not. But most people already have their minds made up. In an age of computer modeling and robotics (why not strap gorillas into test cars and crash them to study the effects of car crashes? Because we have robots instead), the MAJORITY of animal experiments are no longer necessary. I am not suggesting that past animal research has not saved countless human lives. But it is not necessary to torture animals to study the effects of cosmetic ingredients, nor crowd them in environments resembling concentration camps to raise mass-market chickens or minks or catfish for human consumption. I eat meat and chiken and fish, and enjoy them. I'm also horrified at some of the "techniques" used to quickly raise millions of chickens, fatten them unnaturally and bring them to market. If you want nightmares, read about the assembly-line procedures of kosher slaughter. By kosher "law," these animals cannot be "drugged" (i.e., anaesthetized). People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (and no, I'm not a member, though I know several) have serious ethical points to make. It's easy to ridicule some of their publicity campaigns, but only the uninformed would so easily try to dismiss their plea for ethical treatment, based on research that's available to anyone who cares to read. I also know firsthand, as does Steve Pellegrino, above, that S & R's treatment of their magnicent menagerie has always been first rate. But I have not attended circuses in many years. Mainly because, no matter how beautiful an act like Gunther Goebel Williams was, and believe me, it was a sight to behold -- no phony-macho whips and guns, just a man and his big cats, climaxing with a waltz around the ring with one of his tiger's paws on both Gunther's shoulders, the man almost lost in the coat of the cat towering over him, dancing together -- I knew all those formerly wild animals would be herded into trucks and train cars for the trip to the next town. And nothing is sadder than a brown bear in a clown hat riding a miniature bicycle. Small travling circuses are even more pathetic. Nor do I visit zoos any longer. Even the San Diego Zoo, one of the best in the world, where animals are essentially imprisoned in ones or twos, or small groups, doesn't "entertain" or inform me. I can learn more about wild animals in ten minutes on the internet than I ever can by tossing them peanuts across a trench. Zoos in smaller cities are even more depressing. So is the fate of older or injured circus and show-business animals. Read about Ellen, the elephant in the Little Rock zoo who was kept alone in her enclosure for twenty-odd years before finally being joined by a former Ringling-Brothers elephant, Mary, who was put out to pasture by the circus -- but sold to the zoo at a profit, of course. Contrast that with the Elephant Sanctuary in Hohenwald, TN, and you get an idea of what PETA represents. So, while I question the ALF freeing all those minks from a mink farm last year -- most of whom were destined to die in the woods -- I also wonder if the minks' few weeks of freedom before being killed and devoured by some other wild creature weren't preferable to the fate awaiting them at the hands of their "farmers." The raising and slaughter of minks for coats is not pretty. Sorry for this diatribe. But the ignorance on the parts of some, regarding animal treatment and ethics, and the willingness of the uninformed to slam PETA and similar organizations, demands it. While I don't support PETA's determinedly vegetarian agenda, nor their paint-throwing tactics on mink-coat-wearing women, I absolutely support their efforts to educate the public about more humane treatment of our colleagues in the animal kingdom. |
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mattneufeld Regular user 119 Posts |
What an interesting thread. But I have a question: My father was a scientist and professor in bio-chemistry and disease research for three decades. He, along with literally thousands of other equally-educated and equally-informed scientists, can tell you straight-ahead that man needs to use certain animals--monkeys, pigs, rats, mice and, yes, even dogs--in serious, vital, scientific medical research to further the advancement of finding cures for hundreds if not thousands of diseases and viruses that literally plague man and animal across the planet. Without this research, without the use of these animals, this planet would literally be far, far, far worse-off--for man and animals, mind you--than it is now, and we would be living far more sick, dangerous and shorter lives. The great advancements in research, science and medicine in these fields has occurred because of the advances made using the animals listed above--that is just a fact. And, to be even more straightforward, many of the vaccines that PETA members and ALF members have received--vaccines that save their lives and the lives of others who they interact with every day--have become vaccines because of important findings that came out of research on animals. Tell a PETA member to try and argue their way out of that one! Guess what: they can't! Ask any scientist, and they'll back all of this up--because, alas, it is true. Remember one more thing: the same research that has used animals, in a humane manner, has resulted in vaccines that help man--and animals. And animals.
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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Tell a PETA member to try and argue their way out of that one! Guess what: they can't! Yes they can, and have. You may not agree with their arguments, but there have been many cogent arguments against animal testing. For example, one can argue that testing on animals is a poor predictor in some cases of what will happen to humans. One of the prime examples of this was thalidomide, which was animal tested and then went on to create awful mutations in the fetuses of pregnant (human) women. I am not saying these arguments are conclusive, but it's not an open and shut case and there are good points on both sides of this debate. Jack Shalom
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Big Jeff Loyal user 300 Posts |
ELF-- Earth Liberation Front.
A wacko environmental group that has smashed windows on SUV's and burned down houses under construction. |
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mattneufeld Regular user 119 Posts |
Again, you CAN argue that testing in humane, controlled, scientific and medical environments, on animals, has resulted in the creation of vaccines that have helped man and animals. That is simply a FACT. And it is also a fact that PETA members have received vaccines into their bloodstreams that have resulted from the SUCCESSFUL testing of vaccines--on animals. There's just literally no way around this--it is true. I said it can't be argued on these points because it can't--these are facts. I'm talking about successful, documented, scientific and medical research diseases, viruses and vacciens that has proven beneficial to mankind and animalkind. Without such research on animals, again, this would be a far, far more dangerous, sick and disease-filled world. It's simply a fact. That's literally all there is to it.
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Again, it is not necessarily clear that because vaccines have been created through animal testing, that they couldn't have been created through other means. It is not at all an open and shut case of what extra value animal testing provides for medications meant for human beings.
<<Without such research on animals, again, this would be a far, far more dangerous, sick and disease-filled world>> Again, debateable. For example, “The idea, as I understand it, is that fundamental truths are revealed in laboratory experimentation on lower animals and are then applied to the problems of the sick patient. Having been myself trained as a physiologist, I feel in a way competent to assess such a claim. It is plain nonsense.” - Sir George Pickering, Regius Professor of Medicine at the University of Oxford, BMJ, Dec 26, 1964. More quotes from those in the field: http://www.bava.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/futility.html And so on. But I believe we've left even a tenuous relationship to magic here, and this thread should probably be moved to the Not Very Magical forum if we're going to continue this. Jack Shalom
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Jeff J. Special user Connecticut 787 Posts |
Funny, I have heard a lot about animal testing. You of realize that before a drug goes to market, HUMANS must go through long and sometimes dangerous testing.
Have we come to the point where we put more value on a lab rat than a human? |
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Brent W Regular user Ohio 123 Posts |
Having performed with large circuses all over the world I know first hand the tactics of this group. The president, Ingrid Newkirk (sp?) has made herself a millionaire by the donations of people hoping to help animals, not knowing they are lining her pockets.
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KYTerry New user 60 Posts |
I didn't fight to the top of the food chain to eat carrots.
As far as PETA goes, they have done less than the hunters and fishing enthusiasts to preserve and protect our great renewable resources. Every year, men and women support their various state wildlife agencies by buying licenses and tags to legally hunt God's pure protein. The millions generated are used to educate and control the various wildlife heards. Thanks to the Wild Turkey Federation, Ducks Unlimited, and other conservation minded groups, there are more deer, turkey, elk and water fowl in the United States than in any other time in recorded history. Peta is predominately a large mouthpiece for a group of people who have NEVER lifted a hand to actually do something. The individuals that have, would do so whether PETA existed or not. It is documented that PETA monetarily supports groups that are on the FBI Terrorist List. There is a petition to have PETA non-exempt status yanked for this very reason. http://www.hunters-unite.com/peta.htm |
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for petes sake!! New user Maryland 1 Post |
While I am not a PETA supporter...
I am proud to say I am a vegetarian- once removed. I will only eat animals that don't eat meat!! Pete |
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KYTerry New user 60 Posts |
I will only eat animals that don't eat meat!!
Not what I heard P eople E asting T asty A nimals |
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Rob Johnston Inner circle Utah 2060 Posts |
PETA does more damage to animals than good. I do not support them and never will.
I dislike hunting or anything of that sort...but I still LOATHE PETA.
"Genius is another word for magic, and the whole point of magic is that it is inexplicable." - Margot Fonteyn
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MISTER E New user 46 Posts |
Ahh, PETA. The acronym always brings a smile to my face. The noble fight for the rights of animals that neither know they're being violated, nor care that they are. It's a good thing that people are finding something constructive to do with their time. Like splatter fur coats with paint, disrupt valuable scientific testing that could potentially save human lives, and convince high profile celebrities to give them loads of cash so they can write it off as a tax deduction. Ay, there's the rub.
Oh well. To each his own. -E |
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Rob Johnston Inner circle Utah 2060 Posts |
Here in Utah we had an Enviromentalist group burn down a Lumber Yard....it causes millions in damage.
I just have to laugh at their mentality.... They are trying to save and hug the trees...yet they just destroyed millions of dollars worth of trees, and they are now forcing people to cut down EVEN MORE trees. Because of them, they just doubled the loss of trees. Let us not forget PETA's great exploits in freeing the domesticated animals into the Wild. They don't know how to defend themselves or survive, so they die. PETA is more guilty of cruelty to animals then those who own them.
"Genius is another word for magic, and the whole point of magic is that it is inexplicable." - Margot Fonteyn
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cpatchett Veteran user My current prediction is that I have 337 Posts |
I'm going to form a new organization called PETH (People for the Ethical Treatment of Humans) and protest PETA. Anyone in?
Craig
Magician: Someone willing to spend $15 to learn how to make $1 disappear.
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Brent W Regular user Ohio 123 Posts |
Count me in..... let's go protest them while they are protesting someone else...hehe
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Bill Scarlett Veteran user Vermont 366 Posts |
Peta seems to miss the point that people are animals too. Yet they don't seem to care about a loved one who is dying of cancer who might be saved by research done on a rat. I don't care what they say, a rat is not equal to a human being.
Peta may have started with good intentions but my money will go to ASPCA and other groups that represent more mainstream views. |
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hou_dini Regular user 103 Posts |
Check out a recent episode of b******t, a showtime cable company program hosted/created by Penn & Teller. They pretty much explain PETA from both angles.
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JoeJoe Inner circle Myrtle Beach 1915 Posts |
Bribery?!? I would think the organization that regulates the S&R animals would be REQUIRED to have tickets - it would be mandatory for them to witness how the animals are being treated! How else would they know?
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
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dpe666 Inner circle 2895 Posts |
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On 2004-07-16 16:17, Astinus wrote: Not to mention the pollutants that were thrown into the air. Good going you enviro"mental" nuts. |
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