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Kozzi New user 50 Posts |
Hi all,
I've been a long-term reader and first time poster in this forum. Equally, I'm a long-time lover and relatively novice performer of magic. Specifically, I have spent the last 12 months dabbling in elements of magic to get a taste of the variety of disciplines that exist in order to work out the aspects that I enjoy performing most and work best with my personality. I've found that the tricks I enjoy performing most fit into the category of mental magic and, having read purchased and read through Corrinda's 13 steps and Bob Cassidy's Fundamentals I think that I'm ready to take the plunge into developing my skills and reportoire in the field of mentalism. This is the type of magic that really sparks my imagination! So I feel like I have two good guides in those aforementioned texts for the principles of how certain tricks are constructed, how to mould them to suit my purposes, and which books to go to for further development. However, I really am unsure of how I go about practising. With card magic (the first element of magic I dabbled in) I could see the linear progression of practising a trick: mastery of the technical elements, practice in front of a video camera to ameliorate unnatural tells, script development, rehearse in front of wife, then the public. However, reading through Ortiz's Strong Magic it struck me that the latter stages of rehearsing on family and friends is likely to be unproductive as whilst they would formerly believe that I've practiced thoroughly to master a magic trick - the belief that I've practiced thoroughly to read minds is a different question altogether. Is this concern founded? How do you get around this problem when first starting out? Thank you for any thoughts you can share that'll help me get my head around the journey ahead. |
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Simon (Ted) Edwards Inner circle London 1528 Posts |
Yes, you are right to a certain point. You can perform to friends and family while practicing the mechanics, but convincing them is unlikely. That said, if you adopt a performance persona far-removed from your true self you probably won't convince strangers either.
T. |
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dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
One of the differences between the presentation of magic tricks and mentalism is that magic tends to be a trick that, when patter is used, is justified by the patter. Therefore, you can practice the trick and add the patter.
Mentalism, on the other hand, often involves a story that needs to be believable and capture the attention of the audience, a story that is justified by a trick. Therefore, I would respectfully suggest that the practice needs to be on the presentation. Can you tell stories and have all attention placed on you? Can you keep that attention? I would respectfully suggest that concurrent with your studies of the effects, a study of stage presence and acting would be of great benefit. Or at least try reading a poem or reciting a short story without boring your audience to tears. If they are "with you," you can try adding an effect to the story you are telling. By the way, I differentiate mental magic and mentalism. Mental magic (by my definition--others may disagree) is a magic trick (a trick justified by patter) that involves mental aspects such as prediction, mind reading, etc. In other words, the patter tells why you are making the movements and reading their minds. Mentalism involves a discussion of some sort of mental phenomena and the tricks prove the discussion. For example, you discuss Rhine's ESP tests and give an example. If you can't discuss Rhine and hold your audience's attention, the trick is meaningless. |
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Nigromante New user I predict that I will have 67 Posts |
As I started out I was concerned about this too, but honestly I've found most of my friends and family believe me. Because of the powers I've given myself (a suggested step in Bob's Fundamentals), they believe my schtick. It helps that I use terms like body language, influence, subtlety, and am a psych major. In fact most friends think I've taken lessons from my studies to develop my abilities. So while this may not be the best approach for you and your mentalism, I have to agree with Ted that if the persona you adopt isn't very believable to your friends and family it may not be believable to strangers either.
Of course, your family will "know" the truth, but honestly you can practice what you do with them in such a way to make them wonder if they really do know anything. |
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C.J. Inner circle There's a lotta rambling in my 2366 Posts |
The tally so far:
Replies - 3 (this one makes it 4) Answers to the question - 0
Connor Jacobs - The Thought Sculptor
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur Be fondly remembered. |
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phillsmiff Inner circle UK 1794 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-10-02 04:31, Kozzi wrote: I approach mentalism (in my thoughts at least) not to generate belief but to create the space for a suspension of disbelief. Obviously you feel that your non-paranormal everyday persona is too well known by your friends and family for them to actually believe, but if you create room for them to engage without having to commit to belief, then you will be able to rehearse with them in a productive way that everyone involved should enjoy. Accept that they won't believe but realise that this isn't necessarily your ultimate goal (gasp!). I am an entertainer, and THAT is my ultimate goal. Conversely don't say 'let me try this trick out on you' just out of the blue, you should approach the *whole thing* as a performance. Make it an event in some way and create a context, tell them to unplug their analytical mind and to imagine a you who isn't you then show them what you are working on. Acknowledge that you don't *expect* belief but allow them to enjoy collaborating in its suspension. I have found that when people think you expect belief they resist for fear of looking foolish, but if you invite them instead not to worry about the reality of what they are seeing then you can sidestep that completely and seduce their rational mind. (It sounds a bit high-falutin and I apologise for that, but you get my drift) Quote:
On 2012-10-02 04:31, Kozzi wrote: There is no substitute for getting in the trenches and working double hard. If your routines never get rolled out in front of an audience then they might as well not exist. You can get your routines good with hard work alone, but they will never be great until you have thrashed the problems out in real performances in front of audience after audience. I learnt a lot about performing from doing gigs with my local magic club and from performing in the relative safety of shows I have put on myself - you don't get *around* the problem: you just plough through it and emerge on the other side with a few war stories and some great material. Just my opinion of course, but this is my experience. Phill
The new Elysian Duets, marked cards featuring my unique Optical Marking System:
-+: https://phillsmithcreative.com/products/elysian-duets :+- |
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Kozzi New user 50 Posts |
Thanks for the answers so far, even if it approaches my query tangentially I'm finding it interesting what you value.
Ted, don't worry, I'm not intending to don a turban or anything like that. I guess my question was more derived from recently reading Ortiz's comments on the development of prestige and atmosphere in his chapter on suggestion. I guess my assumption is that this is more difficult to establish with friends and family which makes me wonder if rehearsing in front of them is futile if they'll ultimately see me in a very different light to those I aim to (one day) perform for. I guess my concern follows along the same lines as how Ortiz expresses the differing reception of close-up magic by magicians and layman. dmkraig, thanks for those suggestions. Greatly appreciated! I actually think my background is why I've gravitated towards mentalism. I trained as a film screenwriter at uni so I'm very comfortable with storytelling and paid my way throughout uni as a public speaking / debating coach. Its comments like your that affirm my excitement for mentalism as I first started as a public speaker, then moved into debating to be kept on my feet and enjoy the adrenalin rush, and this now seems like the next enjoyable step. Nigromante, it sounds like you are performing more like a human lie detector (to borrow one of Bob's phrases in fundamentals) which areas of psychology would you say are most prominent in helping you establish your character? C.J - Including mine it is now 5 - 0! |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
As you have the public speaking experience, then you are already ahead of the pack...
as magic and mentalism is about sharing the entire experience with people - you just need to bite the bullet and do something... doesn't have to be a massive thing, work on a mini set of three effects, just like a good film or book, a beginning, middle and end - and an overall framework of who you are and what you do... practice/rehearse as ever...use your family to test it, but know that it wont be the same... then its just a question of being at social gatherings, offering your services and just do your opener...if they want to see more, you have your 3 to work through...be it as a bar, pub or party, you'll soon find out what does and doesn't work in those scenarios and with certain types of people...right now, you might not have even decided on how far you want to go with mentalism...you might just want to do it for fun... this is only my own personal suggestion, you need to find your own way...often, when we have these "how do i..." kinda questions, I often find thinking about how YOU would like to be approached/asked if you'd like to see something as a nice basic starting off point... unless I've completely missed what you were asking that is...
I've asked to be banned
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Simon (Ted) Edwards Inner circle London 1528 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-10-02 06:36, C.J. wrote: There were two questions and I thought I offered answers to both: Quote:
On 2012-10-02 04:31, Kozzi wrote: Quote: On 2012-10-02 04:50, Simon (Ted) Edwards wrote: |
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phillsmiff Inner circle UK 1794 Posts |
Don't feed the troll Simon.
The new Elysian Duets, marked cards featuring my unique Optical Marking System:
-+: https://phillsmithcreative.com/products/elysian-duets :+- |
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Simon (Ted) Edwards Inner circle London 1528 Posts |
Yup, sorry.
T. |
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Nigromante New user I predict that I will have 67 Posts |
I mostly work with the ideas of suggestion and reading body language. I like to use the world influence a lot. I also avoid the concepts of NLP and hypnosis. NLP because I think it's an overblown discipline and don't want to contribute to that, and hypnosis just because I don't want my audience to feel like I'm manipulating them (no personal bias though). I also work on the idea that I know a lot about human universals and can predict certain behaviors based on those. I guess if you had to use one word to describe my power it would be knowledge. I claim to have a special knowledge, one that anyone can learn, but still takes years to master. I do occasionally do things, that honestly step outside of that power, but by using these effects sparingly I create moments of wonder not a violation of the mythos. It's definitely a balancing act, but I get better at it over time, just like you will.
As to your question. Practice with your friends and family. Sure they may not completely by into the belief system you're trying to create around your character, but they will let you know if you've accomplished your effect or not. So while your concern is founded, don't let it keep you from practicing in front of some of the most honest critics you'll find. |
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Atlas Inner circle 3103 1277 Posts |
I'm not sure that this is exactly what you are looking for, but one thing that Becker suggests and I have done and recommend is to record yourself at every opportunity. Audio or video, either works. But use the recording to deconstruct the performance, so that you can review it again, distanced from the piece and in a place to be more critical from the perspective of the audience.
You will find little holes in every performance, and will be able to rectify them over time until your presentations are very smooth and your patter is tight. |
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Olympic Adam Inner circle 1259 Posts |
You rehearse what you are going to perform, find the worst bits and make them better,
since you say about recording, you can use that way theoretically it's the same, but the difference is in what you are doing, don't be afraid to spend hours going over one bit of text you say (perhaps something passed over when practicing magic), because it could be the most important aspect complete an effect with everything you want in it - make sure any 'moves' are perfect - rehearse the whole thing with ALL the words etc (even in your head is helpful), use friends not so much to practice moves on but to be people sized props - record it if you want to/be critical other ways - cut out half of what you say - record/review again
Protection for mind readers and mentalists: http://tricksofthemind.com
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maurermagic Regular user 110 Posts |
I am lucky enough to have a core group of friends who are performers and entertainers and I perform and practice my routines to them for honest critique.
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quicknotist Special user 888 Posts |
I have two monthly events where I try out new stuff.
My local magic society meeting (where I'm the only mentalist) and a monthly magic night in a small bar (usually attended by around 50-60 spectators) where I sneak new bits in among some more well-practiced, oft-performed pieces. |
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aalexander Loyal user 232 Posts |
I do most of my testing at teen drop-in centres. They have a short attention span and hesitate to engage, so success says a lot and feels good on a lot of levels. Plus you get a range of ages to work with, as young siblings and staff get involved.
-Aaron |
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Kozzi New user 50 Posts |
Thanks all for your thoughts and experiences,
phillsmiff, I think what you've mentioned has quelled several of my confusions significantly. I think when I was conceptualising how mentalism was different to mental magic I sidestepped the concept of willing suspension of disbelief entirely and that is how I got confused. Thanks for bring that to my attention. I was reflecting on my question last night in light of the responses I had received at the time and realised that the tension (in my experience) between practising magic and practising mentalism is that I can rely on my family to operate as a layman voice for magic tricks but reasonable expect them to be inaccurate in their opinion for mentalism. Given the wealth of suggestion for getting out there and performing on genuine members of the public. Given this, I have previously been very reticent to perform for those outside of my circle of friends and family until I am exceptionally confident that my finished effect is redrafted and fine tuned. It seems like I just need to incorporate public performances as part of my rehearsal process. The thoughts so far have given me much food for thought. Thank you. If there are any more I'd love to hear them. |
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Amirá Inner circle MentalismCenter.com 5131 Posts |
Without any intention of offend anyone on here, I stay away from magicians, especially for my own development as Mentalist.
So my advice for you is:Practice performing. If you are not offering yourself as a performer in the entertainment business, just go out there and perform for strangers. Will be difficult at the beggining, but your persona and charisma will develop on there. Best
Pablo
Performer and Author Mentalism Center: The best online space to get quality Mentalism www.mentalismcenter.com Arkanosophy: The Boutique for Mystery Performers www.arkanosophy.com |
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Simon (Ted) Edwards Inner circle London 1528 Posts |
Amira is right - performing for strangers can be a little frightening to begin with but you may be surprised how quickly it starts to be become easy/fun. And it's a valuable thing to do, as you'll learn so much more than you will discussing things with peers. Also, you'll learn how much you can get away with!
T. |
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