|
|
JESmagic New user Ann Arbor, MI 90 Posts |
This is a repost from another thread where I was asked to comment about the Paul Fox Cups. I figured I would post it again here.
I am by no means an expert on the Paul Fox Cups--but Bill Palmer is. That said, I do have several sets of original Danny Dew Paul Fox Cups--including a "Type 1" set and a several"Type II" sets, a set of Busby Paul Fox Cups, the RNT2 Paul Fox Cups, and of course several sets of JESmagic Squatty. I have found, in my collection, that there is considerable variability in the Danny Dew Paul Fox cups. There are discernable differences between the "Type 1" Cup and the "Type 2" cup that can clearly be seen, and have been photographed in detail on Bill Palmer's website. But, more interestingly, are the differences in runs of "Type II" cups, that often can't be seen in the photographs. In fact, some of these difference can only be appreciated when handling the cups themselves, and on close inspection. I have identified a few findings in my own collection, which I will share below. Early Type II cups (from Perigee) are thin, and very light. In fact, they are so light, in comparison to cups being manufactured today, that performers who use a heavier cup probably wouldn't like using them. The bottom beads of these cups had gaps, which were not uniform. Later runs of cups from Perigee are heavier--but the shape did not really change. The insides were clean, but not polished. The saddle curve was slightly rounded--not sharp like the Johnson Products Cups. Very slight spin lines can be appreciated in the right lighting on a couple of the sets. One thing I learned when producing the Squatty Cups is that tooling is gauge specific to maintain proper proportions when the copper is spun down. The tooling Donnie is using to make the RNT2 Paul Fox cups is designed to be used with 050 copper, which is heavier. If he were to use a lighter gauge copper, like 040, the cups would not nest properly, and the beading lines would be off. When Perigee started spinning with heavier gauge copper, I'm not sure if they retooled or not to compensate for the heavier gauge of copper in later runs. At some point, reportedly in the 70's, Danny Dew had a run of 100 or so sets of cups made at Rings and Things. I have 3 of these sets. I know that these are Rings and Things sets because they have a MagiPoxy Coating so they don't tarnish. All three of these sets are slightly different from the other Type II Danny Dew Paul Fox cups in my collection that were made from Perigee. They are much more uniform, the upper saddle ridge is very sharp and smooth (more similar to the Johnson Products cup), and curve on the top has a slightly different taper. In all three sets, there is one cup that invariably "sticks" slightly when nested with the other two. This is not the case with my sets of DD Paul Fox cups made from Perigee. Ironically, when I look at my Busby Paul Fox cups, they much more closely resemble the DD Rings and Things Paul Fox cups than the earlier runs. And like the DD Rings and Things cups, one of the 3 sticks slightly when nested. This leads me to believe that the DD Rings and Things Paul Fox cups were made on different tooling than what was used at Perigee...and ultimately that it was this tooling that Busby "bought" to make his cups. As far as I know, this tooling still exists, but is cracked and cannot be used to spin any more cups. What happened to the original tooling at Perigee...I don't know. I also don't know why Danny Dew went from Perigee to Rings and Things to make the 100 sets. Perhaps someone with more knowledge than me can lend some insight. Reportedly, in 1982, Danny Dew went back to Perigee where 30 (or so) sets were made, which was the last run he had done before Busby took over. I have no idea what tooling was used for that run--perhaps the same tooling as the Rings and Things run...but who knows. When I produced the orignal JESmagic Squatty Cups, they were made off of a mismatched set of early DD Paul Fox cups. The cup used as the prototype was slightly different than the other two. There were some minor changes made to the Squatty Cup design because, at that time, Busby was still threatening anyone who made a similar style cup. It was only after I talked to Jim Sisti, that I released the Squatty Cups for sale. Nowadays, there are several Paul Fox copies--ie, Penguin, etc...which more closely resemble the original DD Paul Fox Cups. That said, telling a real DD Paul Fox cup from its copies is very easy to do--if you know what to look for. As I said, in my collection, I have enough sets to compare to--with enough variation in the sets that I can tell what is a real cup and which is a copy. As for the RNT2 Paul Fox cups, they are clearly not made from the original tooling. The shape is slightly different, the curves are slightly different than an original set of Danny Dew Paul Fox cups. Moreover, they are made out of heavier gauge copper (0.50). However, the craftsmanship is far superior. The cups are more uniform, the bottom beads are closed, they are polished far better, the plating is cleaner, they nest better.....they are, in my humble opinion, better than what Danny Dew produced. So...there's my small contribution to this discussion. As I said, Bill Palmer is the real expert. Incidentally, I learned early today that my mentor, Joe Lefler, passed away on Sunday after battling cancer. I am deeply saddened by the news....as Joe was a huge inspiration in my life--as he was to so many others. |
Mobius303 Inner circle Lakewood, Ohio 1309 Posts |
Tim Starr spun some of the Paul Fox cups back then for Rings and Things.
He would be the person to ask about those sets. From what both Joe Lefler and Murray Sobel told me they used more than one spinner at that time for the cups and that was why there were differences in the Paul Fox cups produced by rings and things. The Monti cups made at that time also had differences similar to the Paul Fox cups. Mike |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
First off, I knew Tim Star. He spells his name with one r, not two. He told me that in Swedish, starr means blind.
Tim did a lot of work for Rings 'n' Things, but in an email correspondence with him, he told me flat out that he did not spin any Paul Fox cups for Rings 'n' Things. Nor did he ever work for Perigee, as some have suggested.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Observations (0 Likes) |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.03 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |