Do an Elmsley, then a Veeser Concept (hides bottom card) and you will fool a lot of brother magi.

I use the "Heads Up, Hands Up" version of the Elmsley used by Eugene Burger and I prefer that version above all others. It exemplifies how we should be presenting our magic, in my humble opinion. Actually.. it's not the humble. :-D

-Malak aka Daniel GreenWolf

JonTown, Gary Ouellet teaches a series of "paradise" counts. One of which is the Paradise Elmsley. It is done from a biddle-type grip, is this what you are referring to? I tried it, but it seems awfully awkward. He does point out that you can count 11 as 4 (I tried that, too...he's right).

I did not know anyone had put a name or attempted to claim credit for doing Elmsley's count from Biddle grip. It seemed quite natural back in 1976 when Dingle had released 'Poor Charlie' and we were all looking at incorporating the Hammon count. One option was to do that count from mechanic's grip, which is touchy, or ... to do Elsley's count from Biddle grip. Without tipping details, it just seemd obvious that if you backjog the bottom card, and peel cards from the top, the multple pushoff in the standard count could be replaced by a multiple pull off where the thumb from the other hand takes all but the bottom card.

Elmsley style counts are good for displaying even numbers, while Hammon counts are good for displaying odd numbers of cards.

Hope this helps

Mechanics grip version has to be the one I prefer because it is just a much more natural way of holding the cards in most instances. I also find it easier to avoid misaligning the cards in the machanics.

Merlin

In the mechanics grip, the "extra" fingers can often be put to good use...

Quite confused here! The orginal Elsmley Count as mentioned has the cards peeled away with the right thumb in a north east direction. However, the card are not held in left hand mechanics / dealing position.

Thi is is cumbersome, the cards are held at the thumb and fingertips. The difference bewteen this and Vernon's handling is that the left hand is a mirror image of the right hand - its the way the cards are TAKEN which is different.

As said, I prefer like most of you, the original 'peeling away' handling.

Wow
it´s alot of "Actually, the original Elmsl...."
many stories of how the original was.. well all I will say is that I like the "new" elmsley count in the hands better because the old/original elmsley count looks very unnatural. one more thing,
I have learn the "new" one as "Modern Elmsley Count"
but I don't know the "real" name..

well that´s all I had to say

ps Actually, the original Elmsl.... ZzzZZzzZz

I much prefer the finger tip handling too. I've never been able to convince myself that the mechanic's grip is anywhere close to "natural" for these reasons:

If I were to count cards from a packet that starts in the left hand into the other hand, they would go from a stationary left hand to a moving right hand as it takes (counts) the cards "one" at a time. How natural is it to have the receiving hand stationary as you put the entire packet into it only to deal them back into the left hand again?

Too many moves...

Think about it. Just count four cards. How does a normal person do it? Or expect to see it done? If you're right handed, you would probably start with them in your left hand and pull them off one card at a time with the dealing hand. The same should hold true with the false count. The mechanic's grip Elmsley just looks too unnatural.

So does the fingertip grip for that matter, but if it's explained *why* you're doing it that way ("Right at the fingertips so there can be absolutely no 'funny business'"), it's much more believable.

Just my opinion,
YMMV

The elmsley is one of my favorites; you can pull off minor miracles with this one.

I start in a left hand dealers grip use my thumb to swivel the top card off the pack, switch the packet to my right hand, then peel off the remaining cards with my thumb from the fingertip position. The operation is very fluid and because of the hand switch seems to draw very little attention.

Can you describe the 'new' Elsmely count you use, because the altered handling akak new was promoted by Vernon and is undoubtedly unnatural. Fingertips to fingertips distinguishes no difference from between where the cards are coming from and going to, as pointed out by Elmsley himself.

My point was that people have been referring to more natural handling as using mechanics grip. The right hand holds the cards by the fingertips - taking back the cards is much less cumbersome and of course the right hand does the counting with the thumb.

And where did 'actually' come from eh!?????

When I'm not in "magician mode", I think I would just fan the packet and count visually.

From a magical perspective, an Elmsley at the fingertips tells the rest of your fellow magi that you are indeed doing a false count. To adopt that methodology of counting as your regular counting method would be ludicrous. The problem arises when you realize that all methods of the Elmsley involve hiding the cards in the right hand completely, a completely unnatural move.

To argue the merits of whether or not a specific Elmsley is preferred as opposed to one with a different grip is inane, because all those arguments are based on the "naturalness" of the count, when the count in itself, is unnatural.

That being, said, I prefer the one at the fingertips.

Brian the Elmsley count as described by Elmsely is natural. The hold on the cards is only an inch or two from mechanics and the peeling movement of the right hand is exactly the same as a typical natural count.

My point was that if someone does the Elmsley from fingertips to FINGERTIPS and does not differentiate from where the cards are coming from to where the cards are going, then this is unnatural as it far more removed from a 'normal' count.

Granted though, that the most natural Elsmley is slightly removed from a normal count.

Does anyone here play cards with people enough for the finesse of riffle shuffling and 'mechanics grip' to be expected by the audience????

Who is the best teacher (book or DVD/Download) to learn EC from mechanics grip?

Joeni,


In my opinion the best teaching is in Ch 1 of Ian Kendall's ebook, Basic Training (available from Lybrary.com. ) He teaches the method described above by theonejimmie. He breaks down all the things that have to happen simultaneously into small pieces, with exercise drills for each piece, then helps you put the pieces back together.


Best wishes,


Bob

When I purchased the Elmsley's 4-Card Trick in the 80's, this was the position taught in the instructions. I pulled this out of Collected Works Vol 1 so this ought to convince everyone what the early position was.

Thanks! I'll have a look at it!

This started back in 2003, so I'm a bit (fashionably) late to the party, but one point might be worth considering regarding the Vernon fingertip idea on Twisting the Aces... It may appear unnatural, but doing it that way demonstrates very clearly that you're not flipping cards underneath the packet. That's a very specific method chosen to help the effect. There really ought to be a corollary to the "always be natural" idea that states "if you can't be totally natural, at least be very, very fair."