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magicgaff36 New user willoughby ohio 8 Posts 
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I have found my self diving in to very difficult slights as of late Tony Chang Dan and Dave type stuff and now I am thinking that I am spending to much time learning a move when I could be learning simple tricks that aren't knuckle busting card magic but for some reason I try to put the cards down for a day just to steep back and evaluate things but after a few minutes I have to pick the cards back up I do it with out even thinking about it has anyone else every experienced this strange behavior Im not shure if I'm trying to hard to get better or if I'm just going crazy thanks to all JR
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Steff New user 35 Posts
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My guess is : you procastinate. Which is not a strange behavior, but something very common. Especially if you're young (are you ?)
You love to practice D&D stuff. You see the "evaluation thing" as necessary but not so rewardy (let's say a bit boring  ), so you stop the second to get back to what you love.
If I'm right, and if you're really want to become a magician, you'll have to work it out... Working with cards takes a lot of time, and the "reward", that is entertain people with the result of your work comes much after. You *have* to stop and think (evaluate things). And please also note that on this forum there are a lot of people from abroad for whom English is not their mothertongue. Not using any punctuation makes you really, really difficult to read for us. |
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failed_drummer Veteran user 314 Posts
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I completely understand your dilemma; I'm exactly the same. I love difficult, techy moves, but they take so long to master that you can easily lose the context of the magic.
To an extent, it partly depends on your personality and performance style as to how far you take the moves. One of my friends only seems to need to learn the basics of the move and then just misdirects people instictively to cover any messiness, but I don't feel confident enough to pull off a move if I haven't mastered it. In my opinion, it's worth learning difficult stuff, but don't lose sight of the magic. When I was leaning Sandwiches For Mere Mortals by Tony Change, I learnt the Longitudinal Swivel Steal sperately first, but then once I had it, I practiced it within the whole trick. I would definitely keep a few 'easy' effects around to perform while you get the hang of the harder stuff, but if you enjoy the moves and learning them (that was one of the big attractions of magic for me), don't give up on them. |
Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-11-07 23:31, magicgaff36 wrote: I never judge a person's experience in magic by the amount of posts on The Café. That said, I have found that many novices tend to focus on sleights more than effects; however even people with a couple decades of experience do the same. Remembeer that sleights in and of themselves mean nothing if they have no context, i.e, sleights are a means not an end. So ... Look for effects that incorporate the sleights you know already and practice and rehearse the effect. (Practice and rehearsal are two very different things). I would also add that you should learn some "self-working" card magic anyhow. Techy moves as failed drummer pointed can be fun, but, again, these moves do not guarantee a great effect in and of themselves - again, sleights are merely a means to a desired end. As for self workers - I hate that term - some of the most powerful magic you can do falls in this category. And lest you think these types of effects are just for beginners, think again! Look up these few suggestions: The Lazy Man's Card Trick in Lorayne The Classic Collection v. 1 (or Close Up Card magic if you already have it) Overkill by Paul Harris in Art of Astonishment v. 1 Impossible! by Larry Jennings in The Classic Magic of Larry Jennings Untouched by Daryl in a number of sources. I learned it from Aldo Colombini's Impromptu Card Magic Gemini Twins by Karl Fulves in his Self Working Card Tricks series I have performed and still perform these and for me they pack a strong punch. What's more, each of the above named magicians have performed these effects and slayed audiences with them. I will close by writing that first and foremost, magic is a performing art. You might have the greatest Classic Pass ever executed but the simple question is that if it is that great, there is nothing for the audience to see except some guy holding his deck.  (Yes, a cheeky double entendre going on there).
Namaste, Vlad |
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-11-08 05:44, failed_drummer wrote: Failed drummer, I agree with almost everything you have written except for the notion of keeping a few easy effects around. Many great magicians have argued against the tendency to privilege sleight of hand magic over other effects whose methodology relies on other means. Theo Annemann and Dai Vernon have both argued that method is important only insofar as it maximizes effect. Annemann wrote in The Jinx "method be d***ed! I will use whatever means necessary to maximize effect!" I gave the OP five suggestions. Those five effects are STRONG and are in no way "second tier" effects. Obviously I am arguing the same point and furthermore I am arguing that this paradigm of privileging methodologies needs to die. Yes of course there are strong effects that are knuckle busters but there are equally strong effects that require no sleights at all. Even Darwin Ortiz does some of the so called "easy effects." Check out The Zen Master in Scams and Fantasies with Cards. This effect is IMHO an insanely powerful effect that stands equally with other insanely powerful Ortiz effects in the same book and his other books as well. Larry Jennings' The Maestro's Poker Deal in The Classic Magic of Larry Jennings is light on sleights yet the effect makes the performer really look like a maestro of the boards. Namaste, Vlad |
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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Wow, not only was that the longest sentence I've ever read, but I'm confused now. You spoke of the late Tony Chang. He is still with us, no?
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Russell Davidson Inner circle Hampshire, England 1108 Posts
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Magicgaff36 - I think the fact that you can't put the cards down for long before picking them up again is a good thing. It shows a level of desire & commitment to practice past the point where most people get bored & give up.
Vlad makes some excellent suggestions above. At the end of the day, difficult sleights are all well & good but they don't guarantee the effect will be any better received than a self worker. Only to other magicians & that should never be a concern. You'll never stop discovering new things to learn. That's the beauty of studying magic. Just remember it's not what you do but the way that you do it! Presentation is everything, method is secondary. |
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Steff New user 35 Posts
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Quote:
It shows a level of desire & commitment to practice past the point where most people get bored & give up. I agree. Have you considered some cardistry, as well ? Because if what you enjoy is practicing difficult moves... you'll be served ;-) |
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failed_drummer Veteran user 314 Posts
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When I said 'easy' effects, I didn't mean to imply that they were less effective. For instance, my go-to effect is a variation of the Triumph effect which just involves a few controls and a fake mixing of the deck (the mixing works even better if it's messy), but it gets really good reations.
I'm not sure that I entirely agree with this whole 'method second' thing. Sure, a method is a means to an end, but an elegant method can really enhance an effect. For instance, lots of stuff in By Forces Unseen, by Ernest Earick. Quite a few of the effects had been explored by other magicians before, but his refinement on the handlings is just beautiful, and often add touches that convince the spectator that nothing is untoward without them knowing they've even been convinced. Stuff like Proteus and Claptrap are excellent examples. Also, the work on stacking at the end is incredible. If I'm not mistaken, there's one effect where you place four kings in separate places in the deck, a spectator tells you which hand they are to be dealt to. You then stack that hand, as well as four aces for your own hand in one shuffle. It's not easy, but due almost entirely to the method, it is a ridiculously impressive feat. I'm sure I'll get some hate for this, and I do agree that a good presentation of a 'basic' trick trumps a poor presentaion of a great method any day, but I firmly believe that a good method can be just as rewarding, at least for the performer, as a good show. It's not just the audience that should be entertained. |
Dr. JK Inner circle Sandusky, OH 1191 Posts
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I continue to find that it's *generally not worth overreaching on a difficult sleight because there are so many good card tricks that don't require difficult sleight of hand. Of course, if it's an effect that can't be duplicated with a less difficult sleight, or if you're attached to it, then go for it! But, I want to echo what Vlad said: magic is a performing art. If the sleight is so difficult that you won't be comfortable presenting it, best to table it for now, pursue something else you'll perform, and revisit when you have more experience. But most of all, have fun!
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Russell Davidson Inner circle Hampshire, England 1108 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-11-08 08:24, failed_drummer wrote: It's important to enjoy performing of course. But if we don't entertain the audience first & foremost we have failed. Audiences should never be aware of the method no matter how rewarding it might be to do. So unless you're performing for magicians (yawn) the method is secondary. |
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Atom3339 Inner circle Spokane, WA 3242 Posts
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I come with an EFFECT goal that will include either 1) sleights I love doing and do well or 2) sleights I want to learn. Then I figure out if this effect is 1) for entertaining laymen, 2) fooling magicians or 3) just for me. Sometimes there's an overlap, which is fine. Sometimes the effect is the same, but patter and presentation is different.
TH
Occupy Your Dream |
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Atom3339 Inner circle Spokane, WA 3242 Posts
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^ failed, I believe Maestro Land enjoys both his methodolgy and presentation. I think that comes across to the audience when a performer delights in all that he's doing.
TH
Occupy Your Dream |
zaki_rafih99 Regular user 164 Posts
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I personally don't think this is strange behavior at all.. because I do/did the same thing. I always have cards in my hands just out of habit when I'm not occupied. For practicing harder sleights, I don't think its bad to spend most of a day working on one move, but while I did this I still would look through my books to find tricks that I thought would work well with my personality. I never practiced JUST a sleight without at least motivation to use it. for example: the second deal looks pretty. haha kidding. sort of.
just be careful that you don't get stuck in this area of being good at a few tricky moves with a lack of an outlet for them. if you have a decent pass and double lift sure you'll be good for a few effects.. but adding a few simple sleights might take you from 3 tricks to 30. |
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Mipple New user London, UK 76 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-11-08 08:24, failed_drummer wrote: I don't think that what you've said there contradicts the 'method second' idea at all. 'Effect', in this case, doesn't just refer to the big picture outline of what's supposed to have happened in a trick, but all the smaller details as well. When you talk about refined handlings that convince the spectators that nothing is untoward, these have changed the effect in the spectators' minds - it's gone from "amazing event X happened, but there was something suspicious that I think may have had something to do with it" to "amazing event X happened and I've got no explanation because everything seemed completely fair". Mark |
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failed_drummer Veteran user 314 Posts
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I guess it comes from being a mathematician, but in the same way that an elegant proof of a theorem can be just as good, if not better, than the actual result, I enjoy finding an effect with an elegant method, almost regardless of the actual effect.
Returning more to the topic, I quite like learning different sleights, whether they are difficult or not, or even if they're not particularly useful. For example, I must have spent a week on Earick's one-handed bottom-palm, and it is insanely good, but I also spent a few months learning the T.G. Murphy deck flip even though it has discernable purpose. I suppose I just like to have as many tools as possible. I'm a bit of a move-monkey... |
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Justin W. Loyal user Kansas 237 Posts
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Quote:
You spoke of the late Tony Chang. No. "As of late" is a figure of speech. |
Adam1975 Special user UK 900 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-11-07 23:31, magicgaff36 wrote: Im breathless reading your post. The power of full stops son................
Ive upped my standards.Now,up yours!
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MickeyPainless Inner circle California 6065 Posts
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I just spent time with some of the "Best of the Best" including Darwin, The Buck's, Ricky Smith et al and some of their best stuff is relitively slieght freindly! It's all about presentintion! My friend and mentor Steven Youell has some of the most sleight freindly card magic I've ever seen and yet the man has some of the most WICKED sleight of hand moves I've ever witnessed! As for another card (and Cups and Balls Man) DO NOT Blinke when Kent Gunn has a deck in his hands. He'll bamboozle you with plain and simple as well master craft handling! Oh, and don't get me started on Tony Miller..... the guy KILLS me every time he grabs a deck!
I could go on and on but that would just be dropping names.... However hanging out with those Seattle boys is nothing shy of AMAZING! I'm so blessed to have so many GREAT card guys in my life! MMc |
havagrim New user 54 Posts
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Learning moves is always good. But as stated, always nice to remember to learn tricks with the moves aswell, as the move in itself isn't very much use.
But at the end of the day, it all boils down to what you think is fun
And there are many "simple" effects that can be made very powerful with just the proper presentation and maybe adding some simple moves here and there. Ronnie
"The world is my playground"
Magician from Sweden. |
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Posted: Nov 8, 2012 04:31 am 
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