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Slide
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"People that join and lean on unions to do their business are weak in mind and spirit.
Don't like the job? Get a new one, move, learn something else.
No one owes you that job in that location at a set price."

OR....stay and fight. My girlfriend started out as a telephone operator with Verizon. Same job her mother and grandmother had. When she joined, the good paying jobs at Verizon were only given to men. Then the union came in and she was able to get one of the jobs that before would have been denied to her and it was verizon's highest paying job. 27 years later she retired with a pension and full benefits. She would not have had any of those things if it hadn't been for the Union.

I think if failed executives can have their golden parachutes, the working man can have his/her union.
You get what you fight for. And on your own, you're toast.
tommy
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Old bakers never die, they just stop making dough.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
FatHatter
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Quote:
On 2012-11-17 11:29, Slide wrote:
"People that join and lean on unions to do their business are weak in mind and spirit.
Don't like the job? Get a new one, move, learn something else.
No one owes you that job in that location at a set price."

OR....stay and fight. My girlfriend started out as a telephone operator with Verizon. Same job her mother and grandmother had. When she joined, the good paying jobs at Verizon were only given to men. Then the union came in and she was able to get one of the jobs that before would have been denied to her and it was verizon's highest paying job. 27 years later she retired with a pension and full benefits. She would not have had any of those things if it hadn't been for the Union.

I think if failed executives can have their golden parachutes, the working man can have his/her union.
You get what you fight for. And on your own, you're toast.


Or she could have moved on, relied on herself, and not had to wait for a group to decide her fate.
By your standards I'm toast but I can put whatever I decide on it whenever I want. Today I'll have strawberry jam and not have someone else decide for me to have blackberry which I can't stand. A person can fight on their own.
landmark
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Quote:
On 20 k12-11-17 08:07, Woland wrote: See here,


From your link:


"Hostess was able to exit bankruptcy in 2009 for three reasons. The first was Ripplewood's equity infusion of $130 million in return for control of the company (it currently owns about two-thirds of the equity). The second reason: substantial concessions by the two big unions. Annual labor cost savings to the company were about $110 million; thousands of union members lost their jobs."

And meanwhile management is giving themselves huge pay increases. Really, to blame the unions here is to call day for night.
landmark
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Quote:
On 2012-11-17 12:07, FatHatter wrote:
A person can fight on their own.

Does this mean we can now disband the military?
Woland
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Thanks for reading my links, landmark. Here's another one, from "teamster dot org" itself. It seems the Teamsters blame the Bakers:

Quote:
Teamster Hostess members were allowed to decide their fate by voting on the final offer conducted by a secret mail ballot. More than two-thirds of Hostess Teamsters members voted with 53 percent voting to approve the final offer.

The BCTGM chose a different path, as is their prerogative, to not substantively look for a solution or engage in the process. BCTGM members were told there were better solutions than the final offer, although Judge Drain stated in his decision in bankruptcy court that no such solutions exist. Without complete information, BCTGM members voted by voice votes in union halls. The BCTGM reported that over 90 percent rejected the final offer and three of its units ratified the final offer.

On Friday, Nov. 9, the BCTGM began to strike at some Hostess production facilities without notice to the Teamsters despite assurances they would not proceed with job actions without contacting the Teamsters Union. This unannounced action put Teamster members in the difficult position of facing picket lines without knowing their right to honor such a line without being disciplined.

As is our longstanding tradition, Teamster members by and large are honoring Bakery Worker picket lines when encountered and complying with their contractual obligations when not encountering picket lines. The BCTGM leaders are putting Teamster members in a horrible position – asking them to support a strike that will put them out of a job when they haven’t even asked all their members to go on strike.

That strike is now on the verge of forcing the company to liquidate – it is difficult for Teamster members to believe that is what the BCTGM Hostess members ultimately wanted to accomplish when they went out on strike. We may never know unless the BCTGM members, based on the facts they know today, get to determine their fate in a secret ballot vote. Teamster members would understand that the will of the BCTGM Hostess membership was truly heard if that was the case.
magicalaurie
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Quote:
On 2012-11-17 12:07, FatHatter wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-11-17 11:29, Slide wrote:
"People that join and lean on unions to do their business are weak in mind and spirit.
Don't like the job? Get a new one, move, learn something else.
No one owes you that job in that location at a set price."

OR....stay and fight. My girlfriend started out as a telephone operator with Verizon. Same job her mother and grandmother had. When she joined, the good paying jobs at Verizon were only given to men. Then the union came in and she was able to get one of the jobs that before would have been denied to her and it was verizon's highest paying job. 27 years later she retired with a pension and full benefits. She would not have had any of those things if it hadn't been for the Union.

I think if failed executives can have their golden parachutes, the working man can have his/her union.
You get what you fight for. And on your own, you're toast.


Or she could have moved on, relied on herself, and not had to wait for a group to decide her fate.
By your standards I'm toast but I can put whatever I decide on it whenever I want. Today I'll have strawberry jam and not have someone else decide for me to have blackberry which I can't stand. A person can fight on their own.


I say the girl can choose to do what she wants to do. She chose how to fight and got the job she wanted. So she's not you, fathatter. She ended up with her choice of jam anyway.
stoneunhinged
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I myself blame Hostess.

Just saying.
magicalaurie
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Some have said many of the products are outdated, unhealthy, irrelevant, lack quality, etc. Which is why they've been going downhill the last while.
Michael Baker
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Quote:
On 2012-11-17 12:19, magicalaurie wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-11-17 12:07, FatHatter wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-11-17 11:29, Slide wrote:
"People that join and lean on unions to do their business are weak in mind and spirit.
Don't like the job? Get a new one, move, learn something else.
No one owes you that job in that location at a set price."

OR....stay and fight. My girlfriend started out as a telephone operator with Verizon. Same job her mother and grandmother had. When she joined, the good paying jobs at Verizon were only given to men. Then the union came in and she was able to get one of the jobs that before would have been denied to her and it was verizon's highest paying job. 27 years later she retired with a pension and full benefits. She would not have had any of those things if it hadn't been for the Union.

I think if failed executives can have their golden parachutes, the working man can have his/her union.
You get what you fight for. And on your own, you're toast.


Or she could have moved on, relied on herself, and not had to wait for a group to decide her fate.
By your standards I'm toast but I can put whatever I decide on it whenever I want. Today I'll have strawberry jam and not have someone else decide for me to have blackberry which I can't stand. A person can fight on their own.


I say the girl can choose to do what she wants to do. She chose how to fight and got the job she wanted. So she's not you, fathatter. She ended up with her choice of jam anyway.


But in the case with Hostess, it meant putting everyone else at the company, unassociated with THEIR union, IN a jam. They decided the fate of others... not cool. Assuming it's true what the bosses did, a protest was understandable. But, this decision meant screwing many other people out of job which they very well may have needed and wanted to keep because of that very need. Sounds like a lot of blackberry being spread where people may have wanted strawberry.
~michael baker
The Magic Company
magicalaurie
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Would they get strawberry from Hostess again? How many times they've filed for bankruptcy in the last decade? FWIW, in the post quoted, I was referencing the specific situation cited, not necessarily Hostess. Regarding Hostess: the brand wasn't being managed to be as marketable as it once was- customers don't want the stuff. I think that's the main problem, and I don't think that should be pinned on a union.
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2012-11-17 12:30, magicalaurie wrote:
Some have said many of the products are outdated, unhealthy, irrelevant, lack quality, etc. Which is why they've been going downhill the last while.


Right.

Here's my own take on it. Though I'm probably full of doodie.

http://stoneunhinged.com/2012/11/17/hostess-rip-part-2/
FatHatter
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Quote:
On 2012-11-17 12:19, magicalaurie wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-11-17 12:07, FatHatter wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-11-17 11:29, Slide wrote:
"People that join and lean on unions to do their business are weak in mind and spirit.
Don't like the job? Get a new one, move, learn something else.
No one owes you that job in that location at a set price."

OR....stay and fight. My girlfriend started out as a telephone operator with Verizon. Same job her mother and grandmother had. When she joined, the good paying jobs at Verizon were only given to men. Then the union came in and she was able to get one of the jobs that before would have been denied to her and it was verizon's highest paying job. 27 years later she retired with a pension and full benefits. She would not have had any of those things if it hadn't been for the Union.

I think if failed executives can have their golden parachutes, the working man can have his/her union.
You get what you fight for. And on your own, you're toast.


Or she could have moved on, relied on herself, and not had to wait for a group to decide her fate.
By your standards I'm toast but I can put whatever I decide on it whenever I want. Today I'll have strawberry jam and not have someone else decide for me to have blackberry which I can't stand. A person can fight on their own.


I say the girl can choose to do what she wants to do. She chose how to fight and got the job she wanted. So she's not you, fathatter. She ended up with her choice of jam anyway.


Yep, no doubt she can choose as she wishes and I support that wholeheartedly. My point is she chose to wait and let someone else do for her, that is all.
FatHatter
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Quote:
On 2012-11-17 12:13, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-11-17 12:07, FatHatter wrote:
A person can fight on their own.

Does this mean we can now disband the military?


My aren't you the clever one.
magicalaurie
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Quote:
My point is she chose to wait and let someone else do for her, that is all.


Got that, FatHatter. And my point is, maybe she saw that as the most efficient way to achieve her goal, and maybe it was. And I don't think that makes her weak in mind or spirit.
FatHatter
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Quote:
On 2012-11-17 13:46, magicalaurie wrote:
Quote:
My point is she chose to wait and let someone else do for her, that is all.


Got that, FatHatter. And my point is, maybe she saw that as the most efficient way to achieve her goal, and maybe it was. And I don't think that makes her weak in mind or spirit.


Cool. That's where we differ. Smile
magicalaurie
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Yes. I'll just add this to that: there's more than one way to...

Image


skin a cat. Smile
landmark
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Quote:
On 2012-11-17 13:36, FatHatter wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-11-17 12:13, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-11-17 12:07, FatHatter wrote:
A person can fight on their own.

Does this mean we can now disband the military?


My aren't you the clever one.

Sorry for the sarcasm but really, your comment was kind of silly. People choose to do things in concert with others all the time for good reasons. It's not unreasonable nor cowardly to band with others when you are facing a more powerful and wealthier adversary.
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2012-11-17 14:25, magicalaurie wrote:
Yes. I'll just add this to that: there's more than one way to...

Image


skin a cat. Smile


Uh, let's hope Mary isn't reading this thread.
Slide
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"Or she could have moved on, relied on herself, and not had to wait for a group to decide her fate. "

The union gave her the opportunity to choose her fate and the means to get there. She went through the education to be a technician. She went to pole climbing school (they actually have that), she became union stewart and learned how to defend union members against management.

She did that on her own. The union gave her the opportunity to have the option of competing for a job that was not available to women. She was also a single mother raising 2 kids so she needed the work. So....yeah, hardly the kind of person that lets someone decide her fate. She retired on full pension at age 47 and spent the next few years backpacking in Southeast asia and living on a boat in the Caribbean. I hope you've done as well for yourself.

"a person can fight on their own."

And a person can lose.
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