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Peter Marucci
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For God's sake, Neil, your argument is solid and valid but you assume that the pathetic conformists who pretend to be Goths will understand! They have proven that they barely know their butt from a brick!
Necromancer
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Quote:
On 2003-11-09 00:36, Peter Marucci wrote:
For God's sake, Neil, your argument is solid and valid but you assume that the pathetic conformists who pretend to be Goths will understand! They have proven that they barely know their butt from a brick!




Thanks, Peter. I probably should have included the following disclaimer: The above is my personal definition of Goth culture. Any similarity to the definitions of others is purely coincidental.

Like you, I agree that most club kids emulating Goth style have no working definition of Goth culture at all, and simply possess a superficial appreciation for fangs and foppery. Thus has it always been: whenever a subculture has enjoyed a certain cache, it invariably has attracted poseurs who don't think deeply enough to value it for more than its outward trappings.

Pretenders aside, we all know that you, Peter, are gothic to the core.

And now, a production number from the upcoming smash, Blair Witch, The Musical!
Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile
Now that's creepy!
Creator of The Xpert (20 PAGES of reviews!) and the Hands-Off Multiple ESP System ("Quality and design far exceed any ESP cards on the market"-Genii), both at Penguin.
Peter Marucci
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Neil writes: "And now, a production number from the upcoming smash, Blair Witch, The Musical!

"Now that's creepy!"

What would be even more frightening is the hot Christmas gift this year to turn out to be -- are you ready for this -- Goth Barbie!

(Trouble is, they'd probably sell a zillion of 'em!)
Jonathan Townsend
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Eternal Order
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I'm still confused about the roots of Goth.

I have researched the Goths (like the Francs etc)

I have read some of the 'you should get out more often - housebound' stories called gothic literature

I have researched the black/white/morbid druggie crowd from the 18-19th centuries.

Where are we now?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Necromancer
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Peter: Goth Barbie has been done as a limited edition art piece, but not officially licensed by Mattel. (I think it was done by the same artist who came up with such memorable variants as Trailer Trash Barbie and Crack Ho Barbie.)

JonTown: It appears that you're looking for a straight line from the Goths to the Gothic Novel to Victorian Opiumheads to the current Goth subculture. I don't believe there is one.

The current Goth subculture borrows from much of the above, and is largely a nostalgic exercise; as such, it is deeply mired in its own historical references, rendering attempts at "updating" it as irrelevant as modernizing the Civil War Reenactment subculture.

Again, this is just my take on things, but I hope something in it helps you. For other viewpoints, check out these links:
http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goth
http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/histgoth.htm

Best of luck,
Neil
Creator of The Xpert (20 PAGES of reviews!) and the Hands-Off Multiple ESP System ("Quality and design far exceed any ESP cards on the market"-Genii), both at Penguin.
Jonathan Townsend
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Neil, I'm interested in subcultures as they form and what the people involved hold as a common bond.

My questions come from the really antique 'outsiders' that were black/white sever looking with widows peaks and such back in the late 1700s here in American, and how that similar shock of the new might be updated.

The subburban mall goths and 'renaisance' folks are what is also know as 'conforming rebels'. They want to be different from the mainstream though conforming to their popular image/niche/fad. Like guys with mullets and guys over 50 buying sports cars for 'cruising'.

These Goths that have an esthetic, do they take Laudninum? Waste away indoors in a funk of introspection worrying that the outside world is more hostile than their dysfunctional families?


I'm going to lump the mall goths in with the store bought wiccans that seem kind of vain about their historical and traditional stuff. Very tough to bootstrap a thousand years of history.

* note bene: no comment made on ANYONE's sincere religious beliefs or the practices associated with their worhship. *
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Peter Marucci
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Neil,
Hey, great! I really gotta get one of those Crack Ho Barbies!

(Don't need Trailer Trash Barbie; I think I already know her!)

Smile
DanielGreenWolf
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I used to desire the gothic lifestyle because, at the time, goths with red hair was the best thing to be. But I evolved, in my opinion, into something that reflects me more. A mixture of Renaissance, modern day, and Irish Pride. (Mose commonly Green Ren Shirt, blue jeans, 2 leather belt pouches, leather vest and long red hair)

Goths are an interesting life-style and I feel they should be handled with care. Smile I still like wearing black because it makes me look slimmer.

-Malak aka Daniel GreenWolf

"Does this black leather, silver-studded, whip make my butt look big?"
---Image concerned Dominatrix
-Much love,
Daniel GreenWolf
Celtic Magician

www.GreenWolfMagic.com
Jonathan Townsend
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Malak, could you describe what's important to the Goths you've met? Seeking ideals and motivations here.

Are you currently hanging with the rene folks? If so, what do they value?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
DanielGreenWolf
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What's important to goths is different with every goth, just as rennies. But I feel the overall driving force of both goths and rennies is to have fun with what they like to do. Goths love life and embrace the idea that death and darkness exists. This can lead to the physical representation of this darkness through attitude, dress, etc. The Renaissance is a time of rebirth and celebration of life and chivalry, which is what rennies embrace and celebrate. This is from those I know and have met, including myself.

---Malak aka Daniel GreenWolf
-Much love,
Daniel GreenWolf
Celtic Magician

www.GreenWolfMagic.com
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