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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Trick coin trickery » » Magic Koins France (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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billappleton
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Quote:
On 2013-01-22 14:39, polygonsmagic wrote:
As a side note, which may or may not be related: Did anyone read the article on copying in this month's Genii? I agree with much of it. But basically, I think part of the point was, you are supposed to "improve" existing effects and use them for inspiration for new things, not just copy them for profit.


Yes, this principle is widely held. There is also more leeway for the production of a utility device as opposed to a specific trick or effect as well. I always try to work with innovators instead of imitators for a variety of reasons.
BanzaiMagic
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On 2013-01-22 14:39, polygonsmagic wrote:
MercMan, I think if you search for old posts from the late Werner Seitz, either here or on Genii board, you may find that Swadling was not "the man" on flipper coins. He was predated. I forget who the orgiginal guy was, but I remember reading that.

I'm not sure the issue is as settled as you indicate, but the post you mentioned is here:
http://www.geniimagazine.com/forums/ubbt......er=60666

I tend to believe Bob, myself.
Quote:
I think Johnson was the first to start making them stateside, they had them before any other maker in U.S. Johnson is also reputed to have "borrowed" Presley Guitar's CSB, with initials "PG" still visible in the knockoff Chinese characters, and at that time Presley's version with a hole in it was inspired by Connie Hayden's very original 2 copper/ 1 silver gaff.

As a side note, which may or may not be related: Did anyone read the article on copying in this month's Genii? I agree with much of it. But basically, I think part of the point was, you are supposed to "improve" existing effects and use them for inspiration for new things, not just copy them for profit.


I think this may be your best post ever, Poly.
J-Mac
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The post about the alternate flipper inventor theory is on the Café. Supposedly a guy named Phil Postma. Werner presented this theory after receiving an email from Eddie Taytelbaum. There is no other provenance; no other documentation to back this up. Even if true that Phil Postma came up with the idea of a flipper-type coin, it was never published and never commercially released.

The story about Postma inventing the flipper is timed at about the same time that Bob Swadling came up with it. Bob Swadling says he recalls some discussion about various coin gaffs at that time but does not remember any specific mention of what he ultimately invented. BTW, here's a video of Werner Seitz performing with Postma's coin, sent to him by Eddie Taytelbaum. Note that the gaff has no shell and is not at all similar to what we call a flipper coin today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9TITOoHwTM

Bob Swadling's early flipper was being sold by Ken Brooke in the late 1960s (timeline not exact; can't find a date reference) and was known as The Swadling Coin. At that time the coin was basically what we now call the gravity flipper, as it dropped open with all the shaking and would close up upon tossing it. Later, around 1970, a modified version was produced that required a key coin with reverse polarity to open it and was a part of Bob Swadling's Double Deception gaff, which is still sold today. You can hear Bob discuss the history of the flipper coin, as well as his Coin Unique, in an interview with Mark Mason on the DVD that comes with Triception.

Jim
BanzaiMagic
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Thanks, Jim. I've been looking for that video after re-reading the Genii thread I posted above - Werner's links in the Genii thread don't work anymore.

The coin shown in the video is different enough from a flipper that the most I would call it is "inspiration". It's clearly not a flipper despite Werner calling it that in the Genii thread. Regardless, I don't think anyone can legitimately argue that Bob Swadling and Todd Lassen haven't both been responsible for huge innovations in Flippers (and many other areas of our art). I note that Todd Lassen does not make Swadling style flippers and Bob Swadling does not make Lassen style flippers. I wish I could get a NG flipper with a remilled insert and the internal workings, but Bob won't do that. Frustrating for me, but I admire Bob even more because of it.

I agree with Bill Appleton and Poly: support the innovators!
Russell Davidson
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The coins look good in the pictures. Best of luck magikoins, it's always nice to have more choice. Lets hope your name becomes commonplace in the world of coin gaffs. Do you display them outside of France? Maybe a stand at Blackpool will get the magic community talking?

Try to ignore the negativity my friend. This place is full of jerks!
jordi magomero
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I can not talk about creativity, copycat or imitation... but I can talk about quality.
I met Thierry MagiKoins 3 years ago at Milano European Symposium. He is a great guy and I bougth him a set of 4 coins and a [ and the quality is EXCELLENT! Every magician that had seen the set asked me where I bought that! and I also bought a Sun&Moon and a Flipper and both are incredible AWESOME!
I am originaly from Barcelona (right now living in New York) and was worth it to buy to a guy based in France... the shipping cost is considerable less expensive than buying in USA.

that's my experience and modest oppinion.

Hope to close that discussion and continue talking about magic as soon as possible.
_____
Let your dreams come true...
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J-Mac
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Quote:
On 2013-01-23 00:33, BanzaiMagic wrote:
Thanks, Jim. I've been looking for that video after re-reading the Genii thread I posted above - Werner's links in the Genii thread don't work anymore.


Here's the other link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmV3Q8cpCkA

Quote:
I wish I could get a NG flipper with a remilled insert and the internal workings, but Bob won't do that. Frustrating for me, but I admire Bob even more because of it.


Try Joe Mogar's site: http://joemogar.tripod.com/id24.html Look about a quarter of the way down the page. He has Morgan flippers that use thread instead of bands. They are made by Kreis Magic. (Joe had them there well before Mark Mason came out with his "NGF" stuff!) Here they are at the Kreis Magic site: http://www.kreis-magic.com/product/coin/ About halfway down. Not inexpensive, but nice! Oh.. and the insert is milled. Smile

Quote:
I agree with Bill Appleton and Poly: support the innovators!


I agree with that also!

Jim
Merc Man
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Thanks for the insight Jim. So it appears that Bob Swadling DID create the Flipper Coin - particularly for commercial purposes.

I'm glad that you clarified this because basically, it makes Lassen's constant little rants about being ripped-off/copied just a tad hypocritical.

As for the Ken Brooke reference. The first time that Ken sold Swadling's coins was indeed 1968.

When he left Harry Stanley, and set up in business with Frank Farrow in 1967, he bought up the entire stock of coins (and other metal-based gimmicks, such as coin boxes) from a part-time manufacturer/dealer named Fred Lowe, based in Hampshire, England.

However, what he purchased from Lowe was pretty limited stock, with appalling instructions. To this end, Ken turned to Bob Swadling as his manufacturer - within a year of opening his business at 145 Wardour Street.

It is therefore difficult to date some of these individual tricks as, due to limited availability, they did not always appear in his catalogue - and the instruction sheets for these items were not therefore always dated (a practice that Ken adopted with the majority of his catalogued tricks during the halcyon days of 'Ken Brooke's Magic Place').
Barry Allen

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polygonsmagic
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"I'm glad that you clarified this because basically, it makes Lassen's constant little rants about being ripped-off/copied just a tad hypocritical."

So you are glad, because basically whaaaat??? You don't like to listen to Lassen's rants about being ripped off. Right.

So, because Lassen made a flipper coin, long after all the commercial manufacturers had been making them in bulk around the world, he is not allowed to complain if someone is copying from him? That is a little too easy Merc Man, especially if we are still weighing the credits of who invented this flipper coin centuries later. Why did Swadling not speak up when Johnson began mass producing his coin, if it was a blatant ripoff? If he was the true originator, he should have. Right? Who sits around and does nothing while they are being ripped off?

Lassen was the first to ever make a dollar size flipper coin. He was the first to make silver flipper coins. He was the fist to remill the insert edge on a flipper coin. And he was the first, and only, to come up with a design for a practical internal groove. He was also first to adopt the term "gravity flipper".

So now he is a hypocrit? And you assert that he has not been heavily "borrowed" from in the coin gaffing world? How about when he released Triple Threat? It was knocked off within the first week it hit streets. There had never been another animal like it in our coin gaff world, yet it was ripped and the magic community supported the rip. And the magic magazines all allowed full page ads of the rip off.

That is just ONE incidence, but there are many. So he should never complain. Right, Merc Man? Lassen is an innovator. NO doubt. The only things NOT being ripped are the items that no one can reproduce. I doubt you will see all the gaffers making his infinity edge. Why not? It is much better than any predated design. The answer is...because it takes real talent to make that, and no one is going to attempt it.

What DOESN'T take real talent, is buying all of Lassen's products and spending all your time trying to copy that, then launching a website with copies of all his products. So far, I have seen 3 gaffers do that. Not impressed.

So you are tired of his rants. Not me. I am certainly glad he has the nards to let people know who is getting credit where credit is NOT due. You go ahead in your life, and let yourself be taken advantage of Merc Man, and see how much self esteem you have. Not much.

And one more common sense bit. Lassen was a toolmaker and machinist for 30 years before he began coin gaffing. And he has been improving the art of coin gaffing for a dozen years. Do you really think that buying his coins, and trying to replicate his work, is going to put you in the same ballpark? He has forgotten more than most of the new guys on the scene know.

Now maybe YOU should move along, OLD CHAP.
BanzaiMagic
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Quote:
Thanks for the insight Jim. So it appears that Bob Swadling DID create the Flipper Coin - particularly for commercial purposes.

I'm glad that you clarified this because basically, it makes Lassen's constant little rants about being ripped-off/copied just a tad hypocritical.


IMHO an internal groove "gravity" flipper is to a standard flipper what a TUC is to a shell. All four gaffs are very different from each other and all four were incredible innovations when they were invented and introduced.

To me, the important issue is innovation, with quality manufacturing a close second. I have to agree with Poly that if you are just copying you are not doing much good for the magic community. Perhaps like Magic Makers, you are lowering the cost to magicians of certain gaffs that they couldn't otherwise afford, but at what cost? Generic medicines are (usually) as good as the name brand versions, the difference being that the generic manufacturers don't have any R & D costs and can charge less. The downside is that generic manufacturers don't usually come up with earth shaking new medicines. And in Magic, the R& D is even more important than with drug companies, because of the scale. For that reason, my own personal goal is to support the innovators so that we will all have more innovation. When MagicKoins comes up with an innovation that is his own, I will be the first to applaud him for it.
Russell Davidson
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Just because Lassen makes something doesn't mean that no-one else can. And not everyone can afford his prices. It's like telling me I can't drive any car unless it's a Ferrari.

Items get copied in any area of retail, magic especially so there should be no suprises. If you can afford Lassen, that's great for you but why get so uppity of those that can't? And the idea of coin gaffing goes way back before TL was even born. Also, I am under the impression he's constantly busy & is doing very well so why are you so bothered?

If there weren't any other coin gaffs to choose from then Lassen would never be able to keep up with demand.
BanzaiMagic
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Quote:
On 2013-01-29 04:28, Russell Davidson wrote:
Items get copied in any area of retail, magic especially so there should be no suprises. If you can afford Lassen, that's great for you but why get so uppity of those that can't? And the idea of coin gaffing goes way back before TL was even born. Also, I am under the impression he's constantly busy & is doing very well so why are you so bothered?


The reason I am bothered is a man by the name of Steve Dusheck. In his time, he was an incredible innovator who was responsible for many advancements in magic, and especially coin magic. His ideas were wildly copied (often using the same name he gave them without attribution or remuneration). As a result of rampant copying of his ideas, he withdrew from inventing magic for many potentially very productive years. That is a sad loss for us all. I support innovators because I want more innovation. Also, because I think it is fair play - something I had thought you folks from England were known for.

It is your business if your conscience allows you to buy copies of Lassen's work from others, and no business of mine. I bought several items from Magic Makers before I got to know Chuck Leach and others they copy from. Now I do not. While I do not condemn you for your choices, I don't think that standing up for what I think is right should be condemned by you either.
polygonsmagic
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"If you can afford Lassen"

Lassen is priced about the same as the other custom gaffers. He also has a commercial line now that is priced very competitive with magic store prices, and the quality is still second to none.
Russell Davidson
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Lassen's new range is affordable but before that it was high end. But it's great that he's released this line with the same quality. It gives more people the chance to experience his work.

Banzai, I am not condemning anyone. Nearly all magic is copied, or is an offshoot of something else. Credits may be given but hardly ever renumeration. Gaff makers such as Tango, Johnson, Kueppers & Swadling never seem to get slated here so I fail to understand why Magic Koins is getting such a hard time.
BanzaiMagic
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Quote:
On 2013-01-30 04:37, Russell Davidson wrote:
Gaff makers such as Tango, Johnson, Kueppers & Swadling never seem to get slated here so I fail to understand why Magic Koins is getting such a hard time.


Tango, Johnson, Kueppers & Swadling have all in their time introduced amazing advancements and innovations to coin gaffing, as has Xavier Belmont (Ambivalence). As I wrote earlier, I look forward to hearing of similar innovations from Magic Koins, and when I do I will be the first to sing his praises.

Quote:
Nearly all magic is copied, or is an offshoot of something else. Credits may be given but hardly ever renumeration.


In the United States, we have been hearing a lot from Lance Armstrong and others the excuse of "everybody does it" to justify bad behavior. The fact that people have profited by bad behavior in the past does not make it good behavior.

BTW I don't really have a problem with an "offshoot" so long as it advances the art and "credits" are often the only thing inventors are looking for.
billappleton
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Ditto
BanzaiMagic
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As I understand it (third hand, mind you), Magic Koins purportedly bought a slew of Todd Lassen's best known gaffs, figured out how to make them and is now selling them. That, to me is not praiseworthy. If this is not true or if Magic Koins has made some incredible advancements on Todd's work, I would love to hear it and will modify my opinion accordingly. If it is true, I think the right thing to do is to buy those items from Todd.
lukecloughmagic
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Magic koins, will you be at blackpool in a few weeks?
magikoins
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Hi All,

Russel,
Thanks for your message. About your request, I'll be in Batavia @ the 4F in April, and few days after in Toronto.

Banzai,
My innovations and new magical items are all the products with MKS bellow.. : MKS Karaté, MKS Graal, MKS NeoKito, MKS Ramsay, MKS … take a look @ my website to see them Smile

Luke,
I'm not at BlackPool Too, sorry.

My History, perhaps it can help few :

In the past, I've been customer of Lassen but also from Kuepers, Tango, Schoolcraft and M.Lunates (a friend of mine and old magic craftsman).

I've had differents ideas of gaffs, but too expensive to be made.
M.Lunatès teach me how a Lathe Works.
After This, I've bought a Lathe and I've learned All ALONE.
NOBODY TEACHING ME THE "HOW TO BUILD MY COINGAFFs, By Hands, and Without Numeric Tools".

At the Start, I've thinking to make them for me only.

The idea to sell them and do business with is came after, when few magical friends have seen my gaffs, and wanting have one too.

Thus, NO, I not Copy the Lassen's works, I make my own gaffs.
drbuzzard
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After reading the comments here (and being based in Europe) I decided to place an order with Thierry of Magikoins.

I asked him to make an unexpanded ] set with some 1890s Victorian half-crowns that I sourced myself.

I’m very pleased with the results. The ] is well-made and very deceptive. The re-edging is also great and even matches the original milling of these coins.

The order was completed slightly ahead of the quoted 4-week schedule. I thought the price was fair and compared well with other coin sets I’ve ordered from the USA.

Email communication was fast, friendly and helpful. Highly recommended Smile

Photo:

http://instagram.com/p/XApIraw2-A/
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