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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-12-03 16:27, tpratt38 wrote: I perform at the Castle at least once a year and haven't found that to be the case at all. No rant, just my experience. It should be noted that most of the audience members at the Castle are laypeople. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
....c'mon now...mentalism is better than magic...
*stirs the pot some more*
I've asked to be banned
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Dimitri Mystery Artist Veteran user Israel/Ukraine 355 Posts |
Hey David, yes it makes a lot of sense, and I can sympathize with this progress as the subject mentalism vs. magic in a same show is inside war that I still don't know who is winning, I'm glad for you that you made up your mind.
I also agree that mentalism done smoothly can be soooo powerful. I just felt some of the comments being unfair to magicians, Mindpro you wrote to David that it is great that he seemed to get early on that it was about, referring to creating miracles for the audience and not tricks or illusions. sorry if I were deluded with my interpretation but read between the lines, mentalists= miracles, magicians=tricks, means you are better than them, if I'm wrong I truly apologies for rephrasing you like this but if it what you meant I find slightly arrogant. Quote:
On 2012-12-03 13:55, Mindpro wrote: you said you come from psychology background, I wonder if you understand how unfriendly you sound, and how those nice ¨quotation marks¨ calls those who don't get it STUPID or at least asking those who don't think like you to stay away. again if I read bad between the lines I am sincerely sorry, don't really want to argue with you and as obviously I ¨don´t get it¨ I will try to stay away. |
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tpratt38 Loyal user New Orleans 279 Posts |
Bob,
I do believe I just had two bad experiences it just gave me a bad taste in my mouth, I don't think they would give you the harassment I was the new guy and they couldn't figure out how I did a Simon Aronson trick. They were confused I guess on a new guy being Able to fool them. I will give it another chance because I respect your views. These interactions were with 3 different parlour magicians between performances after being introduced by a magician friend and they asked me to show them something. The lay people I performed for around the bar loved it.
Mental Threads....
Invoking your thoughts one thread at a time... Creator of Voodoo Dowels |
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robwar0100 Inner circle Buy me some newspapers.Purchase for me 1 Gazette and 1747 Posts |
David,
I get he sense you are a very good performer who knows how to connect with an audience, whether through magic or mentalism. You would probably be a success doing a one-man act/monologue. For me, the magic I perform is sot of organic. It does not use those magicky props that are on display at magic stores and magic meetings. It is ordinary stuff lying around our houses. So, on the one sense, my shows do not have this great "production value," but they end up being very mysterious and entertaining because of the ordinariness of the stuff I use. These are things that they touch, they examine and they use. So, when I slip into 4DT, the audience is going with me on this fun, mysterious trip. I am on a journey to be the best performer I can be. I am not on a journey from magic to mentalism. They coexist very nicely in my world, in my shows and in my audiences' experiences. One of the most stunning effects I have ever seen performed is Dan Harlan's Crazy Eight. To me, it is pure magic. If it were not geared mainly for close-up or smaller audiences, I would perform this in every show. I enjoy both immensely and cannot imagine giving up either one. I get as much joy as performing for a bunch of kids at a birthday party as I do in one of my mentalism shows. It is just how I am wired. David, thanks for getting this thread going. Bobby p.s. I am totally disappointed in Dr. Bob. He was told to go on a rant, and he didn't. Yes, I am ranting.
"My definition of chance is my hands on the wheel," Greg Long.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-12-04 09:47, tpratt38 wrote: For me, working at the Castle is all about entertaining the lay people and meeting with old friends among the magicians, many of whom I've known and worked with for decades. So, yes, I guess my experience is probably different. Sorry you had a bad experience with some obviously unprofessional guys who don't know how to treat a guest. There are jerks everywhere. And some of them can be pretty harsh. Once I had a magician heckle me during a performance in the Parlour of Prestidigitation. He drunkenly proclaimed that I was a fake and couldn't read his mind. I pointed out that if there were seventeen more like him we'd have enough for a golf course. The laypeople loved it. The guy probably still hates me, but I don't care. Next time I'm working there try to come by. I'd be happy to have a drink or two with you and introduce you to some really good people. Best- Bob |
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Mr_Malloy New user 17 Posts |
I love mentalism because I can start with a story and then build effects into it. I had a roomie that was (is) brilliant at starting with effects and weaving a story out of them, but my brain just seems wired in the opposite way.
Not very profound, but perhaps I might make up for it with brevity. |
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tpratt38 Loyal user New Orleans 279 Posts |
Bob,
Thanks I will try to catch your show next time. Tim
Mental Threads....
Invoking your thoughts one thread at a time... Creator of Voodoo Dowels |
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
Careful there, Tim. I've shared a drink or two with Bob and the stuff he says between sips and puffs has the potential to be significantly performance altering.
I learned more in the pub at MV last year than I did in the lectures. Of course I spent a lot more time in the pub... David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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asanghi Veteran user Moscow, Russia 308 Posts |
Getting back to David's original post, I think Ken Weber has a useful taxonomy of what we do as entertainers falling into one of three categories: puzzle, trick, or extraordinary moments...
Ceteris paribus, well-executed mentalism has the potential of creating more extraordinary moments because of the personal, intimacy aspects. That has definitely been my experience having done magic in the past and comparing it with the emotional impact of mentalism, which is what I currently do... |
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
That's very well put, asanghi.
I think much of the power that is a part of mentalism is in the creation of extraordinary moments. And there's no ignoring the fact that mentalism is, by virtue of how it operates, a very personal experience. The "trick" (okay...sorry ) is to try to make it personal for a room full of strangers as well as the volunteer you're working with. I'm thinking that the way into the heart of an audience is built into the silent question they ask themselves "I wonder if I can do this" or maybe "I wonder if he's REALLY doing it...and if he can do it, maybe I can too." The very first time I did mentalism as...well...mentalism, I was using a Thought Transmitter. I told the woman I was working with that she could write down anything she wanted -- as long as it was something of significance to her. She wrote "Dakota" -- which was the name of the dog she'd had as a child. When I "read" her mind and said that name her mouth hung open and there was literal wonder in her eyes. Think about that and stack that up against ANY reaction you've had when you've done a card trick. THAT'S the beauty and power of mentalism. They KNOW the cards are being manipulated...but they never know for SURE if you've just reached into their minds and drawn out a thought. Dima makes a valid point. I've seen mentalism that plodded. But I've also seen mentalism that made me feel as though something truly extraordinary happened in my presence. I double dog dare anyone to tell me that's not an incredible moment. David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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gabelson Inner circle conscientious observer 2137 Posts |
There's a world of difference between "How did he do that?" (magic) and "How could he KNOW that?" (mentalism).
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DWRackley Inner circle Chattanooga, TN 1909 Posts |
David, what a great story! As one who’s making the transition myself, I really appreciate your perspective. No disrespect to magic, I still do it and love it, but it’s a different animal. And like you, they cannot coexist in my shows, not at the level I’m at now, and not in the foreseeable future. Very good read!
In line with what Bob reiterated, some just don’t (or maybe can't) get it. Saying that magic and mentalism are identical is like saying a car and a plane are just alike because they both have wheels. Cars have air foils and planes have seat belts. Neither is “better”; they have different purposes, different destinations, different costs of operation, and different skill sets to drive. Maybe the perception of "better" comes across because for some of us it is actually a step up in performing ability. I know I was doing “mental magic” as a teenager, Mental Epic, Color Vision, Mental Die, some phone tricks and a code matrix using a partner. But I would never have been able to pull off what I do now without a few years of acting experience and the maturity to “read” an audience (without tricks.) No offence intended to anyone, but some of these “discussions” make me think of a teenager trying to tell a grown-up how life “works”, or a possibly better example might be a banker or a realtor telling a working surgeon how to handle an operation. If there weren’t so much emotional investment (on both sides) we could ask the simple question, “How can you KNOW what mentalism is, if you don’t do it?” (And using the example of the surgeon, I don’t mean reading Gray’s Anomy from cover to cover. I mean rolling up your sleeves and digging around in the carcasses.) If magic is so wonderful (which I agree, it is) then keep doing it! The rest us will keep doing what we do.
...what if I could read your mind?
Chattanooga's Premier Mentalist Donatelli and Company at ChattanoogaPerformers.com also on FaceBook |
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Jeff J. Special user Connecticut 787 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-12-03 16:16, mastermindreader wrote: That could be taken 2 ways. There are sveral U.S. magicians who have Vegas theaters named after them and multimillion dollar contracts (i.e. Penn & Teller, Sigfried & Roy, Lance Burton, Chris Angel, David Copperfield, etc.). I don't know if that's a matter of mentalists keeping a lower profile or audiences who "know the difference." For the record, I have an extensive mentalist collection and I thoroughly enjoy the art, but if you go with the audience popularity overall... |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Scratch-
Respectfully, you either missed my point or you actually proved it. If you are saying that the relative popularity of magic or mentalism is "proven" by the number of theaters named after magicians, you have acknowledged there is a difference. In any event, I wasn't making a qualitative judgment. I love magic. Always have. But I don't perform it publicly and my audiences don't classify me as a magician. Good thoughts, Bob |
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Jeff J. Special user Connecticut 787 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-12-06 12:11, mastermindreader wrote: Actually Bob, I did get your point. I was just making a point because it seems a few people in this section (not you) are very condesnding and sometimes just plain rude to us lowly magicians. I just made that post to put things in a little perspective. |
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tpratt38 Loyal user New Orleans 279 Posts |
There is room in the world for magicians, and mentalist. There are many more individuals doing magic than mentalism, and that has been the case for hundreds of years. I feel magic has been over exposed by the masked magician and you tube. But all the exposure has actually helped the art form. But I believe a basic mentalism affect revealing a name of some one they are thinking of, after they have written it in some manner and the mentalist isn't looking. The drama and reaction to that information being revealed can not be matched by most magic tricks. I perform the royal scam packet trick and get a " no way" reaction. When I follow that with a effect where I have them write down any thing on this business card and then keep the card and put it in your pocket. I don't tear it, I just take another business card and slowly reveal what they are merely thinking of.
The response is "That is impossible" and I can repeat this you can't repeat the same card trick most times. I am a fan of magic, II wish I could perform a good pass. I love magicians like Penn & Teller, an Mac king, or Jeff McBride. But every year Jeff McBride is at the mind vention and he has said Mentalism has a completely different reaction than magic. That is the reaction I prefer, I can then explain a way that the spectator can do something related to what I did. I think mentalism is felt on a more personal level. Magic is perfected entertainment. Magicians have more dexterous skill for the most part. Have perfected sleight if hand. Mentalism is perfected drama. Mentalist must be better story tellers. Better wordsmiths.
Mental Threads....
Invoking your thoughts one thread at a time... Creator of Voodoo Dowels |
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Brainbu$ter Veteran user Indianapolis, IN 326 Posts |
In the right hands, doing a magic trick and following it with a mentalism trick, or vice versa, does not turn everyone in the audience into a rational person who will conclude that the "mental stuff" was done by trickery. Yes, that is logical. No, I've never seen a layman conclude that.
When my grandpa saw David Blaine's first show, Street Magic, I heard him say, "Those card tricks are sleight of hand, o' course...but I think he must be meddling with evil forces when it comes to the levitation." The levitation wasn't even mentalism...it was just an unfathomable illusion that a person could believe might be real. Also, when Blaine did the card thru window with the 8 of Spades as I recall...do you remember what the amazed spectator said? "Ok now wait...first of all...The first one, that was in my mind, that he guessed...that was real. I think he's not natural." He said that in reaction to the Card thru Window! Also, in the Complete Works of Derek Dingle, there is a vignette about his show on Barbara Walters. At the end of his demo, she comments on the fan force he uses where she looks at the fan of cards, then he discerns the card looked at. She said something to the effect of, "The card tricks I can understand...but when HE READ MY MIND!" She had just seen him do the Ambitious Card (probably). And she still distinguished between his "card manipulations," and his "mind reading" (with a deck of cards, no less). I even remember this ridiculous comedy magician at my university...he did a (very poor) B__k-slip force (I can't stand that force). Then he said from the stage, "I can tell by your little ideomotor eye twitchies that your thinking of the 5 of Hearts." My dorm mate said to me, "That was a fun show. Do you really think he can tell all that by her eye twitches?" In my own experience, people, even after having seen me do a sponge bunnies bit (not a routine...just a 10 second thing)... they will still talk about me as a person who somehow knows their thoughts (because I did B___wave D, and maybe an impression pad or CT). I do think it's possible for an audience to disbelieve your mentalism. It's probably because of the way you perform it (no offense). In conclusion. It IS logical to think, "Chris Angel is a magician...therefore he levitates using trickery." But the layperson does not think logically. People keep telling me how Chris Angel hypnotized a group of people and levitated them all. I saw the video. How can anyone in their right mind believe that Angel knows the first thing about hypnotizing someone? He just hissed at everyone and waved his hand over their eyes. Oh well. I suppose it's fortunate for us that humans don't think rationally. |
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Scott Soloff Special user Philadelphia, PA 960 Posts |
When I was six years old I saw a magician on TV (Ed Sullivan's show if I remember correctly). I told my father right then that I wanted to be a magician when I grew up.
That weekend he took me downtown to a magic shop and bought me two tricks. I was off and running. By the time I was eighteen, I had performed at parties, on stage, television and been interviewed in print and on the radio. One weekend I was at the magic shop in Philly (Kanter's) and met a mentalist. He was in town performing and I offered to drive him around in exchange for watching his performances. I gotta tell you... I was floored. I immediately fell in love with mentalism. I put together a brief case act and my magic props went onto the shelf. Never looked back. Magic is fun. Real fun. But mentalism, when done well, is a whole other ball game. I said this before and others have disagreed with me but... After a magic show it was always 'How did you do that?' With mind reading it was always 'Wow!" Best wishes, Scott
'Curiouser and curiouser."
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MentalMidget New user 52 Posts |
I focus on performing mentalism but I love magic, I love watching magic, and I do not personally believe that one is inherently superior to the other. I want that to be the first thing in this post so my position/tone/attitude/etc. cannot be *completely* misconstrued.
Premise: Any great performer or entertainer is considered such because of their ability to build a relationship with the audience that matures into an experience. You can see that the 'greats' in magic and mentalism are....in some way shape or form quite good at crafting an experience for their audience. Keeping that "relationship with the audience" thing in mind, here's my thought on what makes them different- --Granted, there are bad mentalists out there but even the most amateurish mentalist is forced *by the structure of the art* to interact with the audience and involve them with the performance. They exist but...compared to traditional magic, there are *practically* zero mentalism effects that are so purely visual or what have you that they can be performed without at least a minimum of audience involvement. --While this is obviously not true of all effects or performers but... a LOT of magic can be (and is) performed without the assistance from the audience member(s). A lot of magic can be performed without even a *volunteer* feeling as though they actually contributed something to an effect beyond holding or pointing to a prop. I could go on but I'll stop with what I think is the biggest one -- A LOT of magic can be (and is) performed...without speaking. I think one way of putting it would be that mentalism is built to create an experience that is spotted with spectacle while magic is spectacle that can be used to craft an experience. Just my ramblings off the cuff- Brian |
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