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magicbymccauley Special user 830 Posts |
I forgive everyone for everything.
IF you want any sort of proof, I would be happy to oblige.
"Tricks are about objects, Magic is about life."
-Max Maven |
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magicofCurtis Inner circle Los Angeles 2545 Posts |
Magicbymccauley,
I can tell by the post that I have read by you, that you are a good person. You don't need approval from others on this forum! Relax and enjoy life and the wonders of magic!
Curtis Lovell II
http://www.CurtisLovell.com http://www.MagicofCurtis.com www.facebook.com/curtislovellii Los Angeles, California - U.S.A. |
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magicbymccauley Special user 830 Posts |
Good point Curtis. I won't fight these people anymore. I'm a lover not a fighter.
"Tricks are about objects, Magic is about life."
-Max Maven |
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dave_matkin Inner circle 4522 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-12-10 07:30, magicbymccauley wrote: I am a bit bemused by your response.... At first I was tempted to write this....... Ok whilst I work to prove that no one of the all tied up forum forgives, you work on proving that everyone in the real world does forgive (yes I am being sarcastic as you seemed to have missed the point of that paragraph). Q) Dd I say people forgive on this forum? A) No. Q) Do I need to prove That people on here forgive? A)No as I didn't claim they did (or even did not). Did you read AND understand what I wrote? I am assuming not from your reply. .... But in the spirit or reconciliation ....... I thought I will endeavour to make my tone plain and attempt to not be sarcastic ......so will post this instead... My humble apologies I fear I may have worded my post in such a way that was unclear to you, I have chosen these words carefully to avoid any miss-understandings, for I am sure that would not have been the case if I had worded things in a way in which there could be no chance of my meaning being misconstrued. I a much more confident that that you are not stupid and I merely chose the wrong words to clearly portray my thoughts. So to avoid confusion please let me re-word what I wrote in the paragraph that you quoted. this is done to avoid any miss understanding from me selecting the wrong words. 1) you seemed to be tackling generally, making broad sweeping assumptions about the two populations you ere talking about. 2) you seemed to imply that everyone (emphasis on everyone) in the 'real world' (humans not on the all tied up forum of the magic Café) will always (emphasis on the always) forgive and move on. 3) you seemed to be generalising again and saying that no one on the All Tied Up section on the Café will/ would / could forgive. I get that you were not prepared to believe that anyone on the ATU forum would ever forgive. After all a lot of the people that have disagreed with you have not made open and public apologies to you, when you have been right. But let me just check, do you really accept that everyone in the real world would forgive? Personally I don't belief that BOTH of those things are true. I know people on the ATU forum who are prepared to forgive - from personal experiences - I don't need to prove that and I can't do it without referring to private emails. Any way, once again apologies for not making my thoughts and meaning clear enough for you to get the first time round. |
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Roslyn Inner circle UK 3405 Posts |
Mcauley, if you are going to correct me on the use of the English language please do your research first. As a qualified journalist I not only know the meaning of words, but also the power they can give to someone. This power can be both positive or negative, just like physical strength.
Violence does not have to be physical in order to be classed as a violent act. Violence is "an unjust, unwarranted, or unlawful display of force, esp such as tends to overawe or intimidate". It is possible to display force using nothing but words. If those words are unjust, unwarranted or unlawful and used to intimidate, control or subdue another then you have committed a violent act. If your behaviour is abusive towards another then it is unwarrented and you have been unjust. It is also quite possible your comments would also fall under the definition of slander and would therefore be unlawful too. You say I expect people to be perfect. This is not so. I expect people to treat each other with respect. Why is that such a difficult concept? Why would you need to be perfect in order to achieve that? You don't. It's easy. If you wouldn't walk up to someone in the street and punch them in the face why would you do the literary equivilent on here? There's no reason for either. It's easy to do neither. It takes zero energy to simply do nothing. I can escape straitjackets, ride unicycles and juggle 5 clubs. These things take a lot of work. All of us here have skills that have taken years (even decades) to master, in comparison being respectful is simplicity itself. Is it not? Now, please do pick over these comments. Quote me as you have before if you want to. I won't be replying any more. I don't have anything further to say. I think I've been open and honest. You know my opinion. I hope you understand it. I'd like you to all agree with me. I know some will, some won't and some won't give a **** either way. That's fine. Have a good'un
The Magic Cafe account of The Conwy Jester, Erwyd le Fol formerly known as Roslyn Walker.
My home online Join me on Facebook Follow me on twitter |
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magicbymccauley Special user 830 Posts |
Dave Said:
>I get that you were not prepared to believe that anyone on the ATU forum would ever forgive. After all a lot of the people that have disagreed with >you have not made open and public apologies to you, when you have been right. But let me just check, do you really accept that everyone in the real >world would forgive? I appreciate you saying that Dave, I really do. Yes, people have insulted me on this forum and not said they were sorry. Yes, I have proven people wrong on this forum and they have not admitted it. And their response when I do prove them wrong or do point out that they insulted me is to hate me. I don't think that's correct. No, I don't think that everyone in the real world forgives anything, just that people in the real world are more willing to forgive than the people on the ATU forum! It's been my personal experience that jugglers, magicians and clowns hold grudges. REALLY BAD GRUDGES. Of those three, Magicians are the worst. But it's nothing compared to what I've seen in the Escapology community. And I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about all the disagreements I've seen on the ATU forum over the years. Sure there are people who never forgive, but forgiveness is FUNCTIONAL. We all know we have to forgive our families, our friends and our co-workers when they do something wrong. And insulting someone is a minor offence. Ros and Kondini said that they never forgive people who wrong them. NEVER! That it would be a betrayal of who they are! I sort of don't believe them. I think they just don't forgive people on an internet forum. Even sociopaths have to forgive people. Are you going to refuse to talk to anyone who voices the slightest insult at you? Who shows the slightest bit of disrespect towards you? Of course not. That's just not plausible. And the fact that people in the real world CAN and DO forgive VERY SERIOUS things (like sexual abuse, or murder), makes the people on ATU seem even that more out of step with social reality. Has Ian forever become my mortal enemy because I thought he was British, not Australian and I said "Cherrio" to him? Come on now! People can forgive murder in the real world but Ian can't forgive that on an internet forum? I hope he will change his mind! >I know people on the ATU forum who are prepared to forgive - from personal experiences - I don't need to prove that and I can't do it without >referring to private emails. You're right, and Cliff has already demonstrated I was wrong on that. I hope people will forgive in the future. It's now time for me to say, yes, I am wrong and you are right people do forgive, EVEN on this forum. And even posting that I would buy Ian's stuff and that he makes good stuff was a hope that people would forgive.
"Tricks are about objects, Magic is about life."
-Max Maven |
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magicbymccauley Special user 830 Posts |
Roslyn, earlier, you said:
>"But when someone starts firing off blatant insults that, to me, is unforgivable behaviour." Now you are saying: >"You say I expect people to be perfect. This is not so. >I expect people to treat each other with respect." No, you are expecting perfection. If anyone insults you ever, you'll NEVER forgive them. That's expecting perfection (in respect to insults, or disrespecting you). You have a zero tolerance policy with no possibility of parole. That is expecting perfection. Have you never been insulted or disrespected by a family member, a co-worker, or a friend? And if so, do you bear a grudge to this day? If you don't bear a grudge to this day, then you are being inconsistent. You're expecting people on this board to be perfect and never disrespect or insult you, while in reality you forgive people in your life for that behavior all the time. If I'm wrong, and you are the sort of person that hates someone forever for insulting them, and never forgives or forgets, then that's fine. (And there are people like that in this world, I've met them), You just didn't strike me as that sort of a person. (You strike me as a very happy go lucky, live and let live sort of person). As far as "display of force" goes, force is a PHYSICAL action. That's what the definition means. Now let me be clear, intimidation and bullying as well as verbal abuse are horrible things, and they are wrong. But on the scale of things, you can't equate physical use of force and insults. You can't even equate intimidation and physical force (that's why they are two seperate crimes in law, threats are assault, and physical force is battery). As far as that goes, we just don't agree and we aren't going to agree. I don't agree with the idea that all sins are equal. Having your face bashed in with a crowbar is not the same as insulting someone's hair on an internet board. They are both wrong but they are NOT the same thing. If you don't want to respond, that's okay, but I still think you're wrong and I've explained why I think so. If you are true to your word, you won't hate me or insult me for disagreeing with you.
"Tricks are about objects, Magic is about life."
-Max Maven |
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guyactor Veteran user 355 Posts |
Dave, what are you thinking starting a thread with a question like you did? Just let him do what he'd like. It's not our business.
Come on - I'm loving reading and learning about the art of escapes I would like to use in my talks/presentations. Barry Michael |
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Kondini Inner circle 3609 Posts |
Take a step back and re-read some of the posts made by certain people here, indeed go back a couple of months.
Now back to now and read the present posts by these / this same people. The obvious would be to reccomend treatment for the schizophrenic. What never changes its spots. C`mon lets not get suckered or manipulated into such a nonsense. Some are just not fully cooked. |
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Roslyn Inner circle UK 3405 Posts |
Very quickly.
My family, friends and co-workers have never disrespected me. That's not to say we always agree. We don't on many issues. But that doesn't change the fact that they are always respectful towards me and I am towards them. Disagreeing with someone about something doesn't have to result in abusive and threatening behaviour. It is a choice that some people make. I do not associate myself with those types of people. So with regards to me holding a grudge. To keep things simplistic, yes I do. But not over a mere disagreement. As I said before I have some very close friends who disagree with me all the time. What I've been referring to from the start is abusive behaviour, which is completely different. If I am abused by someone I will not forgive them. I've been assaulted both physically and verbally in the past. On two occasions the aggressors ended up in court and were sentenced accordingly. For the record one of them involved physical abuse, the other was just verbal. It was the latter who received the higher punishment. So, your statement about physical abuse being worse than verbal abuse is not necessarily true in the eyes of the law. In the UK the victim need only feel fear for it to be a serious offence. I don't know US law. I'm assuming from what you have said that it is different. They are also not separate offences in the UK. They are both classed as assault. Yes, you have different levels of assault. Common, ABH and GBH. And yes, having your head caved in with a crowbar is a more serious offence than being threatened and abused verbally. But if you re-read my initial post I make a distinction between the physical world and the online world. It is impossible to physically abuse someone via an Internet message board. But verbal abuse via the Internet can and does have a negative effect on people's lives. If you disagree with me that's fine, but try telling the families of those who have committed suicide because of abuse they received via Internet message boards that it is any different to physical abuse. You compare a minor insult on here with horrendous crimes like attempted murder. Which is ridiculous. But compare like for like and you'll see that I'm right. Compare physical abuse that ends in the death of someone with verbal abuse that ends in the death of someone. Forget the law. We are from two completely different countries. But look at it as a human being. On both occasions you have an aggressor who's actions have ultimately led to the death of another. You can say that these two things are different. But they aren't. Not to those involved. Now I'm not saying things have got to that level here. They haven't. In the physical world the insults here equate to a minor tussle. Pushing and shoving. It's not hugely serious. Nobody has really gotten hurt. But as you say, I have zero tolerance towards any form of violence. And that's true. I do. I am a relatively chilled out kind of guy. I live and let live. I respect others. And I expect nothing less from others in return. It's hardly perfection though. It's just a basic part of being civilised. Maybe in your world it equates to being perfect. Not in mine.
The Magic Cafe account of The Conwy Jester, Erwyd le Fol formerly known as Roslyn Walker.
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magicbymccauley Special user 830 Posts |
Hooooooooold on.
There's a difference between an insult, a display of disrespect and verbal abuse and threats. In fact an insult, verbal abuse and verbal threats are three different things. Yes, in the U.S. words with the intent to physically harm or threaten with violence is a crime just like the UK. For instance, if I say "Step back punk or I'm going to bash your head in with this brick", (and I have a brick in my hand), that is in the U.S., a crime called "assault". Although I don't agree, it is at least reasonable that you don't forgive someone who has assaulted you or threatened you. After all, they have at least committed a crime against you. But that's very different than someone just saying "You're a punk." As far as verbal abuse goes, that is the constant berating of another person and disparagement of their person meant to intimidate and degrade them on a constant basis. It is a consistent pattern of abusive behavior. That is not (yet) a crime in the U.S. though we are taking steps towards making that a crime. Also, someone merely insulting you on the street or the internet is not verbal abuse. Verbal abuse occurs between people that have a consistent relationship, where one is constantly putting down the other. Not a simple stray insult from a person on the street. No one on here has made a threat of actual violence towards anyone, and on line, threats of violence aren't really that credible. Yes, I could say "Well, I'm going to come to your house in the UK and kill you." That would be a crime. But I don't think that's happened on here. As far as verbal abuse goes, I don't think we've reached that point either (though, to be sure, we've come close). The Café's sensors prevent that. >If you disagree with me that's fine, but try telling the families of those who have committed >suicide because of abuse they received via Internet message boards that it is any different >to physical abuse. You don't have to tell me. I was bullied all through school and that's why I took up martial arts. But comparing an environment like a school with children (which can really turn into Lord of the Flies) or a situation like an abusive family to the Café is, I think a needless exaggeration. >Now I'm not saying things have got to that level here. They haven't. In the physical world >the insults here equate to a minor tussle. Pushing and shoving. It's not hugely serious. >Nobody has really gotten hurt. But as you say, I have zero tolerance towards any form of >violence. And that's true. I do. Verbally threatening violence is a form of violence. I agree with that. (In the U.S. for it to be verbal assault it must be accompanied by an action, like raising a fist, grabbing a weapon, pushing or advancing into a person's space to intimidate them). Verbal abuse is a form of abuse, I agree with that. But insults are not violence. There I disagree with you. >I am a relatively chilled out kind of guy. I live and let live. I respect others. And I >expect nothing less from others in return. It's hardly perfection though. It's just a basic >part of being civilised. Maybe in your world it equates to being perfect. Not in mine. Well, I agree with you about being verbally assaulted. If someone did that to me I might forgive them, but I would still want nothing to do with them, I wouldn't want them in my life at all. I wouldn't trust them. I don't think requiring that is requiring perfection. While I don't have a zero tolerance policy towards that, I can at least understand that you do. However, as far as insults go, I think it's unfair and unrealistic to expect that someone will never insult you, and that if they do, you have a zero tolerance policy towards them. I don't think that's reasonable, and I don't even think that's realistic. Look me in the eye and tell me you've never been insulted by a family member, co worker, or lover. I'm sure you have. We all have. Was your response to never forgive them and to excise them out of your life for even one insult or disparaging remark? I don't think so. I think if you did that would be requiring perfection that just isn't possible for a human. And as far as insults on an internet board go, we should be even more forgiving as we don't really even know each other. We can't read tone, inflection, cannot see another person in a social context, can't read their body language or see any of their physical actions or demeanor. We should be overly forgiving because this is a very limited form of communication. Holding a grudge against someone on an internet board is, in my view, pretty ridiculous.
"Tricks are about objects, Magic is about life."
-Max Maven |
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Roslyn Inner circle UK 3405 Posts |
Looking you in the eye Mcauley.... I have never been insulted by a family member, a friend or a co-worker. I have had disagreements with them, but they have never insulted me nor I them.
It's obviously a difficult concept for you to grasp and I feel sorry for you that this is the case. I obviously have a far more thoughtful network of people around me and if nothing else this very odd little thread has made me realise how truly lucky I am to be me. I wish that you could know what it is to have friends, family and co-workers like the ones I have.
The Magic Cafe account of The Conwy Jester, Erwyd le Fol formerly known as Roslyn Walker.
My home online Join me on Facebook Follow me on twitter |
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magicbymccauley Special user 830 Posts |
I'm not sure I believe you, but perhaps the UK is a more civilized place than the U.S. (or at least, where I live in Washington DC, where people constantly argue about politics).
When I went to London people were far more polite and kind than they are here. Same true of Ireland. But it does puzzle me that... me being in a more say... acidic part of the world than you, and I'm more willing to forgive an insult than you are. Seems strange. You would think that me being in a harsher, less polite part of the world would make me less forgiving, and more bitter. And the fact that you may be in a more civilized part of the world makes you less forgiving? It seems strange to me that if you are surrounded by people that never so much say an unkind word to you that you'd be so unforgiving of one who does.
"Tricks are about objects, Magic is about life."
-Max Maven |
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Roslyn Inner circle UK 3405 Posts |
I think I now understand why we're crossing wires.
You say you're in a less civilised part of the world because where you are people argue about politics etc... But that's exactly my point. Debating (I prefer that word over arguing) is completely different to insulting and verbally abusing someone. I debate politics, religion and other volatile topics with friends, family and co-workers all the time. From your last post it seems you categorise this type of communication as someone insulting another. Where as I don't. I won't fall out with someone because they believe in God and I don't, or they vote for one party and I another. There is no need to fall out with someone just because they believe something different to you. As I've said before, I would be first in line to defend anyone's right to believe what they want, when they want and how they want. I'm a very liberal kinda guy. What I'm talking about is mindless abuse. Not respectful debate. I can't forgive someone who insults my family, my country and my opinion. All of which has happened on here over the past 6 months. And by insulting my opinion I don't mean simply disagreeing and putting forward their opinion. So if I say I like such and such book and give reasons why it's perfectly ok for someone to say they don't agree because...... But if they read my opinion and then start accusing me of being this, that or something else then that's not on. There is no reason to do such things. And it is this kind of behaviour that I find unforgivable because there are so many options for respectful debate. To choose anything other than that simply proves why I would not want anything to do with you. Disagree with me all you like. But don't personally attack me because you can't develop an intelligent argument. Now I think we've hijacked this thread long enough. If you want to continue this discussion lets move it to pm. Otherwise, I think we have both said all that needs to be said on this. Don't you?
The Magic Cafe account of The Conwy Jester, Erwyd le Fol formerly known as Roslyn Walker.
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magicbymccauley Special user 830 Posts |
Oh, well I meant that in Washington DC, things go out of debate and start into personal attacks all the time! Even our presidential candidates do it, or try to do it subtly.
Yes, people do stray from the high road when debating, and DC has the worst drivers in the world, people almost killing you on the road here, flipping the middle finger, honking, cursing at you and such is almost a daily occurance. And the same is true for many sectors in the public. A lot of cursing and insults happens at the Department of Motor Vehicles, in our courtrooms, at public rallies and protests, and in places like hotels, ESPECIALLY in areas of customer service. I wasn't aware that your family or your country had been insulted on the Magic Café, I was not aware of that, and I am sorry for that. >Disagree with me all you like. But don't personally attack me because you can't develop an >intelligent argument. That is as fair as you could say it. However, I do forgive people if they do personally attack me. It happens ALL THE TIME on the internet and happens in my real life, whether I'm on the highway or anywhere else. Perhaps people in the UK are better at keeping their emotions in check. Americans do not. (Not trying to generalize, but there it is). >Otherwise, I think we have both said all that needs to be said on this. Don't you? Fair enough. However I would say that people on here despise me not because I personally attack them, but because I disagree with them, and take umbrage at that, even moreso when I prove them wrong. People don't like being proved wrong. It makes them angry. While on here you have disagreed with me but never insulted me, but I can't say the same for everyone on here.
"Tricks are about objects, Magic is about life."
-Max Maven |
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dave_matkin Inner circle 4522 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-12-11 10:50, magicbymccauley wrote: (well this first bit was Ross.... I am pretty sure that (if you read his words AND think about what he has written as a whole rather than splitting it up in to sections that you want to argue about) Ros was saying that .... 1) written comments on the Internet (social networking, chat rooms <why are they referred to as rooms> and video) can AND HAVE been a causative factor in the death of people in the form of suicide. People who never even met face to face. 2) the families o these people are not going to be comforted by you disagreeing with Ross when he says that the end result is as tangible as physical attack. You tell him that you can't compare what happens on here to what can happen in a school ..... BTDTGTT (scars rather than T-shirt)...... And that it's an exaggeration ...... Is he exaggerating the damage that can be done to a family through the Internet ...... Thinking of Amanda Todd in particular but I am sure there will be others if I wanted to go looking ...an I don't want to look. That's fine I would say I agree with you that this isn't happening here. But Ross already said that ..... And you then quoted him on it ...... Quote:
On 2012-12-11 10:50, magicbymccauley quoted what Ros had said .... Now I have never met you in person. It's s just my opinion people may share it people may not. I'm putting this to bed. The following can not be disagreed with - it is MY OPINION. It is born out of reading posts o he Café over the past weeks. This is MY OPINION of how You McCauley come over in your posts when I read them. AND I have taken great care to read - and re read to make sure I am not miss-reading. My opinion is this:- It seems to me that your writing puts over a heir of importance of superiority You seem to be very argumentative (that's not to sy your the only one ....hi I'm still here) You seem to miss-interpret what has been written. Taking small sections out of context then arguing this points. And for some reason you like to argue what others have said us their opinion. You post long posts and sometimes thy are hard to follow Now I'm off to bed. |
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magicbymccauley Special user 830 Posts |
1. Air of superiority/authority. I don't have this. If someone perceives it, I think that's their error. I've said from the start that I am a beginner escape artist. Never touted my accomplishments, don't even talk about them unless people practically force me.
2. Argumentative. Yes. I am. I point out when people are wrong, and if they claim they aren't wrong I argue until they either prove me wrong or they are forced to admit they are wrong. People don't like this. I get that. But the other option is just being a "yes man". 3. Taking small sections out of context then arguing this points: I don't agree. People's building blocks aren't usually solid when making an argument. I point that out. They don't like that. Then they don't like me. I say that's on them. 4. You post long posts and sometimes thy are hard to follow. Fair enough. I will try to be more succinct and accurate in the future. My mind doesn't always work in a straight line. As a fellow LD person you know this.
"Tricks are about objects, Magic is about life."
-Max Maven |
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
All you're accomplishing is to alienate people.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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magicbymccauley Special user 830 Posts |
Well Steve, I'm sorry you feel that way. I think I'm accomplishing more than that, but I appreciate hearing your opinion.
"Tricks are about objects, Magic is about life."
-Max Maven |
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Roslyn Inner circle UK 3405 Posts |
I don't think anyone has accomplished anything with this thread.
The Magic Cafe account of The Conwy Jester, Erwyd le Fol formerly known as Roslyn Walker.
My home online Join me on Facebook Follow me on twitter |
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