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bonesly
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Quote:
On 2013-01-20 10:16, parmenion wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-01-20 07:18, bonesly wrote:
Just to clarify I don't have FAX. My opinion is based solely on the demo video I saw. When I look at something new I always look at effect first then method. Its the effect that usually excites me. Sometimes it is the other way round, that is, the method is an IMPROVEMENT on an already good existing effect.

FAX essentially is about duplicating signatures so it is a method. Having a duplicate signature can help you achieve miracles. Its biggest application for me would be card to impossible location, I am surprised the demo video doesn't show that. One phase in an ACR is still just one phase.

So, you're more and less fishing for the method, lol


Fishing for the method? Hardly. I am talking about the effects they showed in the demo, I was surprised that they didn't show a really clean card to impossible location. GDW thinks they did at the end of the video but looks more like a colour changing card/deck routine to me, don't really know how to describe that effect, but my first thought isn't card to impossible location.
lokikross
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Hi Bonesly!

When I pitched this product I did not pitch the method.
I instead pitched a 2 person signed transpo that not only happened in their hands, but they could double check that their card was in their hands, before the transpo.
It ended with both cards being destroyed by the spectators and going to an impossible location.

The only reason I feel that the product, and demo, focused on the ACR; is because it is a much quicker use of the method, so a faster pay-off to the magician learning it.
The mechanics on those impossible location effects were intense too, utilizing this method multiple times, amongst others.

On the DVD I mention several times that this is intended for Impossible location and time/space effects.
I also cover this in more detail in the PDF.
(As well, Francis' color change is more than that. They see their signed red card, they end with their signed blue card. It is shown as one fair card. That is why they freak out to it.
I cannot imagine a cleaner way to show a signed card change colors.)

I personally do not use this for card effects anymore. It applies to any object really. (I have done it with plates, bills, paper, books, reciepts, ect)
As well, in Vegas several pros shared ideas with me..

Jerome Finley uses it to create an induction. That is all I will say as he has sworn me to secrecy on it. Let's just say that you could easily "prime" a person for mentalism, psychic, or Q&A style presentations and they will chomping at the bit to follow along.

Paul Vigil told me he didn't do signed effects. I asked him if he did BIL.
He said yes, but did not see the point.
He then described how he would do BIL including bits from Steve Spill, ect.

I listened then asked, "Doing THAT routine, would it still not be cleaner, and more impossible, if the bill was openly destroyed, with the signature in view? Thus ensuring the spectator believed their bill was gone, for good."

He paused, smiled, and said, "It would cost you a dollar, but it would be more powerful that way."

Every time I see the term "duplicate signature", I cringe. It is so far from that. The method alone is rock solid, and law enforcement would not call it duping, but something else Smile
In all, it is the logic trap, and the justifications that set the spectator up for the huge reactions. They are the "pro-tips" that make this work so strongly.

If you watch the dvd, see the method, and think, "Not for me". Then please sell it to someone who will use it. (And forget you ever saw it Smile )
This is meant for those who want to really take their magic to another level.

And I know from experience, this method has opened so many doors in magic for me.
As well, several pros have told me they would have paid 2K to learn it from me, personally, if I had not already put it out.
(Jerome Finley, Morgan Strebler, Christian Diamond, to name a few)

So, if you want to boost those qualities of your performance, and do not mind spending a few weeks "feeling it out", then great! I am glad I could help Smile

If you are looking for an "I opened it 20 minutes ago, and look at me do it like the pros!" then please, stick to the products they demo on WPR.

I am not in this for money, (those that know me know how true that statement really is Smile )
I want to better everyone's art, if it applies to them.

So get it Bonesly, if you want impossible locations, that is what it really does best.
Or don't, if you feel like what info I have just shared does not cure your skepticism. Smile

I want you to make your own decision. But I thought you should know there is more to this, than what you mentioned.

Thank you for the interest regardless.
LokI
bonesly
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Quote:
On 2013-01-20 13:58, lokikross wrote:
Hi Bonesly!

When I pitched this product I did not pitch the method.
I instead pitched a 2 person signed transpo that not only happened in their hands, but they could double check that their card was in their hands, before the transpo.
It ended with both cards being destroyed by the spectators and going to an impossible location.

The only reason I feel that the product, and demo, focused on the ACR; is because it is a much quicker use of the method, so a faster pay-off to the magician learning it.
The mechanics on those impossible location effects were intense too, utilizing this method multiple times, amongst others.

On the DVD I mention several times that this is intended for Impossible location and time/space effects.
I also cover this in more detail in the PDF.
(As well, Francis' color change is more than that. They see their signed red card, they end with their signed blue card. It is shown as one fair card. That is why they freak out to it.
I cannot imagine a cleaner way to show a signed card change colors.)

I personally do not use this for card effects anymore. It applies to any object really. (I have done it with plates, bills, paper, books, reciepts, ect)
As well, in Vegas several pros shared ideas with me..

Jerome Finley uses it to create an induction. That is all I will say as he has sworn me to secrecy on it. Let's just say that you could easily "prime" a person for mentalism, psychic, or Q&A style presentations and they will chomping at the bit to follow along.

Paul Vigil told me he didn't do signed effects. I asked him if he did BIL.
He said yes, but did not see the point.
He then described how he would do BIL including bits from Steve Spill, ect.

I listened then asked, "Doing THAT routine, would it still not be cleaner, and more impossible, if the bill was openly destroyed, with the signature in view? Thus ensuring the spectator believed their bill was gone, for good."

He paused, smiled, and said, "It would cost you a dollar, but it would be more powerful that way."

Every time I see the term "duplicate signature", I cringe. It is so far from that. The method alone is rock solid, and law enforcement would not call it duping, but something else Smile
In all, it is the logic trap, and the justifications that set the spectator up for the huge reactions. They are the "pro-tips" that make this work so strongly.

If you watch the dvd, see the method, and think, "Not for me". Then please sell it to someone who will use it. (And forget you ever saw it Smile )
This is meant for those who want to really take their magic to another level.

And I know from experience, this method has opened so many doors in magic for me.
As well, several pros have told me they would have paid 2K to learn it from me, personally, if I had not already put it out.
(Jerome Finley, Morgan Strebler, Christian Diamond, to name a few)

So, if you want to boost those qualities of your performance, and do not mind spending a few weeks "feeling it out", then great! I am glad I could help Smile

If you are looking for an "I opened it 20 minutes ago, and look at me do it like the pros!" then please, stick to the products they demo on WPR.

I am not in this for money, (those that know me know how true that statement really is Smile )
I want to better everyone's art, if it applies to them.

So get it Bonesly, if you want impossible locations, that is what it really does best.
Or don't, if you feel like what info I have just shared does not cure your skepticism. Smile

I want you to make your own decision. But I thought you should know there is more to this, than what you mentioned.

Thank you for the interest regardless.
LokI


Thanks Loki for your detailed reply. Your product has definitely got me intrigued so I will put it on my shopping list and check it out for myself , hopefully its something that I can use Smile
r99h
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Quote:
On 2013-01-20 13:58, lokikross wrote:
Every time I see the term "duplicate signature", I cringe. It is so far from that. The method alone is rock solid, and law enforcement would not call it duping, but something else Smile
In all, it is the logic trap, and the justifications that set the spectator up for the huge reactions. They are the "pro-tips" that make this work so strongly.


That's made my mind up for me. I'm getting this!

Rich
lokikross
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I am glad I could help clarify Smile
Steve Haynes
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[quote]On 2013-01-20 13:58, lokikross wrote:
Hi Bonesly!

When I pitched this product I did not pitch the method.
I instead pitched a 2 person signed transpo that not only happened in their hands, but they could double check that their card was in their hands, before the transpo.
It ended with both cards being destroyed by the spectators and going to an impossible location(end quote)

Two people signed each signed a card?
Sounds interesting...
lokikross
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It was Steve. But it was also on the more complex side. Thus why I think it didn't make it on the dvd.
I may still make that routine available in the near future. Smile
gdw
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Quote:
On 2013-01-19 15:42, bonesly wrote: . . . To me the demo looked more like a magician fooler because a standard ACR will always give you those reactions.


Well, it IS being marketed to magicians Smile
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Dannicus
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Quote:
On 2013-01-20 03:53, Silver Glove Magic wrote:
All I will say is I'm kinda glad some folks don't think this is worth the time or patience. This is an effect I want to learn to master, even if it takes years. So the less who have it, or even the less who will truly ever learn it, then actually use it will be at a minimum. I concur with SaySold1, this ain't for everyone. Criticize all you want, the less who possess this amazing skill, the better.


I tatally agree with this! The fewer of you out there doing this the better. I have now done 7 shows with this and the technique has already found its way into several original routines. I am glad I now have this skill and my confidence performing it has really grown. it continues to slay audiences.

Thanks Loki and those of you not doing it thanks to you too. Oh and for the record I did NOT get a free copy and I don't know Loki or anyone else on this forum to the best of my knowledge.
Owner of Handcrafted Miracles, San Diego
www.handcraftedmiracles.com

See our items and like us on Facebook at
www.facebook.com/handcraftedmiracles
Libertus
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Okay, here is my review so far of this item. Just to be clear, up till now I have not heard of Loki,
so this is all new to me. I will start of by saying that I have only played around with this for a
good few hours but I think it's enough to leave my honest review on this. Of course, I will report
back and leave more information if that is the case. Firstly, I ordered this after reading some positive
messages on this thread itself. However, upon reading some negative reviews, I was a tiny bit scared..
but in the end, I think I made a good investment nevertheless.

FIrst of all, let me say the concept is genius. I might as well say it is one of the best releases of the year.
I wouldn't go too far to say it IS the best release, but it is definitely one of them in my opinion. One of
the many points magicians above raised was the fact that an ACR would have the same affect (on a
laymen). Therefore, I decided to put this to the extreme test - by testing both routines on 2 people
I trusted. These people always give me honest feedback so I can pretty safely say it was a fair experiment
or trial.

The first person I did this to was my brother. Let me just repeat- I am no professional in FAX just yet and
at the same time, Im not a master at the ACR. However, I can do both pretty decently and it works. For
those who think FAX is a "buy and try" kind of trick, it's not. It requires a lot of practice, just like any other
trick, but this one does indeed need practice.

So, anyway, I did the ACR and FAX to my brother. And at the end, he said they both looked completely
same to him. The second person I did this to was my neighbour. She, however, asked if she could put
the cards back in (as shown in FAX). However, apart from that, she still gave the same reaction to FAX
as she did to the ACR.

This just comes to show that to laymen, both routines may work just as well as the other. I personally
would stick to an ACR, but however, if you really want to make yourself "clean", then you can go with
routines using FAX where the spectator does all the work. After all, if THEY do it, then who is to complain?

Would I use this in the working world? Probably not, and that is because I can do the ACR just as fine.
However, is it a good trick? Yes, it is. If you have a pack of cards, then you could probably achieve a SIMILAR
effect for FREE using basic / intermediate sleight of hand. If you really want to make sure that you aren't
the one doing the "trick" as you do in the ACR, then definitely get FAX because with that, no one will suspect
a thing.

The price? Well, the price to me is an absolute steal. Unlike the pricing of other products I have seen this week,
FAX is definitely good value for the price you pay. The routine here at 1:40 is simply astounding.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIg2nPGnbeU

If you get FAX, then that routine above is something you should definitely try because it is simply terrific. The
concept again for FAX is incredibly smart and fantastic, yet pretty darn simple.

My overall conclusion is that the idea behind FAX is very smart. And very well put together. However,
if you are someone with good sleight of hand, you can achieve the same effect as shown in the video,
with less practice and potentially for free.

Another thing which everyone HAS to take into consideration is the fact that this trick requites a hefty
amount of practice. I have bought tricks in the past where a day or two of practice will be fine and I
could easily fool people in the working world. However, with FAX, you need to sit down, have a cup of coffee
or a beer and just practice, practice and practice. This isn't going to be one of those effects where you
can practice once and then go out and perform to everyone else without issues.

As you may / may not already know, even the camera man gets to play with the idea a bit and he too
is amazed. This just proves that this trick can be done by anyone but it just needs practice I would say.
If you are doing magic to a bunch of smart little asses that know what basic moves in card magic, then
an ACR might not be the best approach - but thankfully, FAX can save the day. With this, they will
never suspect a thing. After all, everything is done by the spectator. You don't touch anything.

Another thing which is probably required is good audience management. This will definitely for sure help
you perform FAX to the highest of your abilities. Another thing which you need is confidence. A lot of it.

If you like rock solid, angle proof, self working, bullet proof magic, then this probably isn't for you. Having
said that, like I said, enough practice will make this an impossible trick. I currently practice this with a mate
and that definitely does help a lot.

There are lots of ideas for routines and that is what makes this an amazing effect. The ideas are limitless. And yet the concept is very simple, and at the same time, it creates strong reactions.

I won't be using this because this just doesn't suit my style. I prefer to just do an ACR as I am confident
the results will be pretty much the same as doing FAX. However, if you ever come into a situation where
you need to trick a magician, then FAX just might do the trick. Some here have said that this product
is over hyped, over rated and over priced. I don't agree with that. It is not over hyped. It is not over rated
and it is definitely not over priced in my opinion. I personally will not use this so I may as well just sell it
soon but there are definitely going to be a lot of people who would find use for this clever trick.

My final verdict: Purchase this if you want something more than just an ACR. Final percentage
from me would be 70%.
bonesly
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Thanks Libertus for taking the time out to write your review
brad12d3
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I was thinking of building a similar effect using a concept I learned from max mavens videomind volume 1. For those who own this dvd you will probably know what I am talking about. Its the trick that uses the golf pencil.
Now I would be surprised if no one had used this method to dupe signatures. I have a couple of ideas on how to do it but if someone knows of any books or dvds that already have a method like what I am thinking then I would be curious to see how others have approached it.

I know my post is vague but anyone who owns videomind vol 1, will know what I am getting at. You can pm me.
lokikross
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Thank you for your honest review Libertus Smile

I appreciate that you addressed concerns and favorable thoughts.

I am not trying to get everyone to drink the kool-aid, I just want them to know it is not "spiked" Smile

I am glad you see the potential for other effects with this, that was my pure intention.

Thank you for taking the time to share your experience. I hope FAX grows on you, with time Smile
Libertus
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Quote:
On 2013-01-21 19:49, lokikross wrote:
Thank you for your honest review Libertus Smile

I appreciate that you addressed concerns and favorable thoughts.

I am not trying to get everyone to drink the kool-aid, I just want them to know it is not "spiked" Smile

I am glad you see the potential for other effects with this, that was my pure intention.

Thank you for taking the time to share your experience. I hope FAX grows on you, with time Smile


You know what, Loki?

I am actually going to play around this for a little longer and then do it at college to the smart asses walking about. They are the type
of people who know a D.L is just by looking at it so this will absolutely fry them. If the reactions are good, then I might just
keep this for those type of people and then get back to the ACR for the others who just have no clue what's going on.
r99h
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Quote:
On 2013-01-21 11:51, Libertus wrote:
So, anyway, I did the ACR and FAX to my brother. And at the end, he said they both looked completely
same to him. The second person I did this to was my neighbour. She, however, asked if she could put
the cards back in (as shown in FAX). However, apart from that, she still gave the same reaction to FAX
as she did to the ACR.

This just comes to show that to laymen, both routines may work just as well as the other. I personally
would stick to an ACR, but however, if you really want to make yourself "clean", then you can go with
routines using FAX where the spectator does all the work. After all, if THEY do it, then who is to complain?

Would I use this in the working world? Probably not, and that is because I can do the ACR just as fine.

...

There are lots of ideas for routines and that is what makes this an amazing effect. The ideas are limitless. And yet the concept is very simple, and at the same time, it creates strong reactions.

I won't be using this because this just doesn't suit my style. I prefer to just do an ACR as I am confident
the results will be pretty much the same as doing FAX.


Thanks for the review, Libertus, but I'm confused. You mentioned that Fax can be used for a lot routines, but won't be using it because you can do an ACR to your satisfaction. Do you not see other routines, effects, situations, etc. where you might use Fax? Or would you only use it for a spectator-centred ACR?

Rich
J-Mac
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I'm really curious as to Loki's remark that he is using it for Plates, books, receipts, etc.! That really stopped any speculation by me in its tracks! Plates?!?!

I need to get this just to satisfy my curiosity now.

Thanks!

Jim
lokikross
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I am glad you are going to give it some more time Libertus! I like your positive thinking! (Also, you do not need to use it to fool magicians... I will explain.)

r99h and J-Mac, I'm going to tip my hat a little here. I hope I do not give too much away, as I am in an "informative" mood Smile

When I pitched this product, the ACR did not really "exist". As in, I had thought of it in my previous dvd, but it was a "bonus" idea.

It was nowhere near the effect I shot for P3. I actually shot 9. 6 were kept. 4 made the dvd. The only effect I did not have a direct hand in is MWI. I had a similar effect and Francis worked it into that.

East meets West was another bonus idea I had thrown him, not the presentation, mind you. Just the effect.

The TNR is his take on what I describe in the ACR, which to be fair, is a 2-phase hands-off ACR with a TNR to Imposible Location ending. And ends with everything inspectable.
That is stronger than any normal ACR, imho.

It also covers the impossible location concept.

I made it very clear on the DVD and PDF that this method is intended to be used, with almost any effect, to make it more impossible.
If people are watching the first 40 minutes, and then reading the PDF; then it should be clear. I apologize if it wasn't.

A lot was cut from this project. So I will tell 2 instances of my use of this skill in real life working situations.

The Plates: I did this once at a friends house when I was out of "magic" items.
It went so well I set it up for a VIP party.

The caterers were pushing plate carts through the event. I stopped one in front of my audience.
I mentioned that for the price they were paying, the china should be unique.
I had them sign a plate, then we decorated the edge of it with sharpie, "to make it look classier".
Then I said, "It's impossible! And tossed the plate to the floor. It shattered. Everyone was shocked that I would do that.

I then had the caterer clean it up and carry it away.
At that point I had already done a space manipulation bit.
So I introduced time travel. The idea that an awkward moment can be erased if everyone felt "pain" from it.

By then the caterer was back delivering plates. I handed the signed/decorated one back to the VIP.
As if it never happened. The caterer was playing along.

I do not think I need to explain how the reactions went. It was something they never expected to see.

As for other ideas, here is one that you should really consider...

I was performing for a singer. She was very nice, but also very pre-occupied. (I perform for quite a few music people. Long story.)
We did some card work, and because of my opener, she had drawn a symbol of her perception. It was in the open.

I then simply had her autograph a card. I asked if I could use her cell, and reached for it. She then reached for it and zipped her purse. (remember this part Smile )
I then had her use the cell phone light to "inspect" her card.
I then had her tear it up.
I then had her inspect that it was her autographed card in her hand, torn into pieces.
She was getting as bored as you are now reading this. PERFECT! Logic Trap has been SNARED!! Smile

I walked across the room, made the pieces vanish, one-by-one. Some theatrics ensued.
When just one piece was left, I asked for her phone again.
She said I had it, but checked her purse anyways.
The card was there. And I was holding what many believe is a Paradox. I made her touch them together to prove the Paradox existence.
She is pretty freaked. I had taken her to the edge, but I am a little evil; so I decided to push her over.

I asked her to look at the symbol she had drawn of her perception; the one I "altered".
Then I had her look at the wood etching on the border of the wall above her head.

She left one shoe, and her purse behind.
Her friends had to get her to come back in. But not until I had winked at them and smiled. They were on the floor, laughing, for a few minutes.
She eventually came back, but did not want to see any more magic. Good. I couldn't have followed that anyways.

On the material provided in FAX I mention many ideas. Let me congregate a few to get this discussion rolling back into the creative side again.
Even at the detriment of making a sequel Smile LoL.

So please, have fun with these next keywords that honestly; I am shocked have not been mentioned yet.

Space Manipulation. The Course-Correction of Time. Object Cloning. Object in Impossible Location BEFORE the routine starts. Paradox. Time Travel. Channeling. BIL. Signed ACAAN. Muscle Memory. Hands-Off TNR.
CTW. Bill Through Window. Have the card pushed through the window by the spectator in Kaos. Resurrection of Unique Item.

I have now said a lot. If you use any of these concepts, then you will be where I am with this skill.
The skill is second nature after practice, then the ideas start forming.

This is because the Justification, and the Logic Trap created by it are infinitely more powerful to the spectator than just using the skill.
If you only see this as another ACR, then I apologize again for not being clearer on the scope of this ability. (In my defense, I did not have any say in the edit).

Those of you who get that part, understand how dangerous this skill can be. Thus the "confidence", "ballsy", et cetera, statements.
In time, those same people will be mentioning how simple it is to do anymore. It just works that way.

Hopefully now. The virtues of the rest of the method make better sense to more people. And you can begin to make all sorts of impossible presentations. Smile
r99h
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Thank you for taking the time to reply so extensively, Loki. It sounds as though Fax is extremely versatile. (And that you had fun shocking, freaking out, and generally entertaining people with it Smile)

It sounds like an excellent product, and I will certainly buy it. From reading posts in this thread, I thought it was a skill which could be used in many ways. I was therefore a little confused when I kept reading about whether someone would use it when only ACR routines were mentioned in the review.

I'm looking forward now to hearing how other magicians are using and adapting it...

Rich
lokikross
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No Problem Rich!
I am leaving town for Magi-Fest this week and want to make sure I address everyone before I leave again.

As for your comment, IT IS versatile! That is the ENTIRE point of the product. To remove a ton of gimmicks from your pockets, and replace them with a skill.
And not only a skill, but one that is justified in a way that makes the whole interaction even More Impossible than it could have been without it.

As for the ACR comments. I honestly believe those that think it is just an "ACR" have...

1. Watched the first few minutes, heard the method NAMED, and said ,"No way am I trying that!"
2. Or they have just seen the demo. Smile

I would like any magician that has this to openly state it is only good for an ACR. It would be interesting to see how those that are using this will respond to that statement.
We had a dose of that on the last page Smile

And I still cringe at the term "Duplicate", that is so archaic.
You could rob a bank with this skill, but I am not condoning anyone to try.

**(My official public statement urging you all to not use this illegally)**
J-Mac
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OK, OK... Ordered!

Thanks for all the info Loki! (I already have Loki's "PMI" add-on for Ignition, so I have a lot of confidence in him!)

Jim
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