Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4~5~6~7~8~9~10 [Next]
|
balducci
Loyal user
Canada
227 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 10, 2013 06:23 pm
0
"All that analysis and yet you offer not one comment regarding Canadian laws which mandate that the victim, as well as everyone on the train were legally prevented from defending themselves (or the victim)."
1. I made no such comment because I was factually addressing the question asked, and not proselytizing a viewpoint as you are doing.
2. They absolutely were NOT "legally prevented from defending themselves (or the victim)".
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
|
Andrew Zuber
Inner circle
Los Angeles, CA
3014 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 10, 2013 06:36 pm
0
Are we just making every thread in this section about gun laws now?
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
|
balducci
Loyal user
Canada
227 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 10, 2013 06:38 pm
0
Quote: On 2013-01-10 13:09, RobertSmith wrote:
A free human being's right to preserve their own life can not be legislated. Subjects however...
Assume the train was completely empty except for the two convicted criminals who were fighting with one another as was the case in Edmonton. According to your logic, you would have liked them to be armed? Personally, I am happy that Canadian criminals do not have the same predilection for guns as their counterparts in the U.S. do. YMMV, obviously.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/res-rec/comp-eng.htm
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
|
RobertSmith
Veteran user
330 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 10, 2013 06:57 pm
0
Quote: On 2013-01-10 13:38, balducci wrote:
Quote: On 2013-01-10 13:09, RobertSmith wrote:
A free human being's right to preserve their own life can not be legislated. Subjects however...
Assume the train was completely empty except for the two convicted criminals who were fighting with one another as was the case in Edmonton. According to your logic, you would have liked them to be armed? Personally, I am happy that Canadian criminals do not have the same predilection for guns as their counterparts in the U.S. do. YMMV, obviously.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/res-rec/comp-eng.htm
You're applying information after-the-fact. Regardless of whether the victim himself had been previously convicted, the others on the train didn't know that.
And nobody else on that train had the legal right to stop the attacker.
I'll give you a similar situation...
The first concealed carry shooting in New Mexico after our CC legislation was passed, took place at a local Walmart. A man heard a woman screaming. He walks around the corner to see another man stabbing this woman.
He drew his legally concealed firearm and shot the attacker.
The woman lived.
The suspect expired.
After-the-fact, it was discovered that the man was her ex and was a violent, abusive SOB. Oh, and she had a TRO against him.
She did not have a criminal record.
Would this shooting have been different if it turned out the woman had been previously convicted for some crime?
Of course not.
Canadian laws mandated that nobody was allowed to walk around the corner and stop a violent attack.
Maybe the maple leaf on the flag should have a yellow stripe on it?
|
Magnus Eisengrim
Inner circle
Sulla placed heads on
1053 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 10, 2013 06:59 pm
0
Quote: On 2013-01-10 13:57, RobertSmith wrote:
Canadian laws mandated that nobody was allowed to walk around the corner and stop a violent attack.
You clearly have no concept of Canadian laws.
Quote: Maybe the maple leaf on the flag should have a yellow stripe on it?
But you do succeed in being a buffoon.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
|
mastermindreader
1949 - 2017
Seattle, WA
12586 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 10, 2013 07:02 pm
0
Please provide a citation to a reputable source that states that Canadian law prohibits a bystander from coming to the aid of someone being attacked. Since the right to come to the defense of others is a fundamental part of the common law, I doubt that you will find any.
I assume that you mean that Canadian laws would have prohibited bystanders from having guns to shoot the attacker. Well, if the attacker wasn't armed, they would not have been allowed to do that here either. The level of force used in self-defense or in the defense of others cannot exceed the level of force being employed by an attacker.
This is Criminal Law 101 stuff.
|
RobertSmith
Veteran user
330 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 10, 2013 07:10 pm
0
Quote: On 2013-01-10 14:02, mastermindreader wrote:
Please provide a citation to a reputable source that states that Canadian law prohibits a bystander from coming to the aid of someone being attacked. Since the right to come to the defense of others is a fundamental part of the common law, I doubt that you will find any.
I assume that you mean that Canadian laws would have prohibited bystanders from having guns to shoot the attacker. Well, if the attacker wasn't armed, they would not have been allowed to do that here either. The level of force used in self-defense or in the defense of others cannot exceed the level of force being employed by an attacker.
This is Criminal Law 101 stuff.
The victim is dead as a result of his injuries.
The attacker used enough force to result in death.
This was deadly force.
I'd question the temerity of any lawyer who could possibly argue otherwise.
|
balducci
Loyal user
Canada
227 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 10, 2013 07:13 pm
0
Quote: On 2013-01-10 13:36, Andrew Zuber wrote:
Are we just making every thread in this section about gun laws now?
Basically RobertSmith figures if he starts enough arguments about gun laws in enough threads in this section, he's bound to win one eventually.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
|
tommy
Eternal Order
Devil's Island
16544 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 10, 2013 07:28 pm
0
These crazy events are invariably caused by psychotropic mind bending drugs, be they legally prescribed or otherwise.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
|
RobertSmith
Veteran user
330 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 10, 2013 08:54 pm
0
Quote: On 2013-01-10 13:59, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote: On 2013-01-10 13:57, RobertSmith wrote:
Canadian laws mandated that nobody was allowed to walk around the corner and stop a violent attack.
You clearly have no concept of Canadian laws.
Quote: Maybe the maple leaf on the flag should have a yellow stripe on it?
But you do succeed in being a buffoon.
Really? The analogy "walk around the corner" was in connection to what happened in the shooting at Walmart here in New Mexico.
Are you telling me Canada does in fact issue concealed weapons permits?
If so, I acknowledge that I was wrong.
|
mastermindreader
1949 - 2017
Seattle, WA
12586 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 10, 2013 09:18 pm
0
Quote: On 2013-01-10 14:10, RobertSmith wrote:
Quote: On 2013-01-10 14:02, mastermindreader wrote:
Please provide a citation to a reputable source that states that Canadian law prohibits a bystander from coming to the aid of someone being attacked. Since the right to come to the defense of others is a fundamental part of the common law, I doubt that you will find any.
I assume that you mean that Canadian laws would have prohibited bystanders from having guns to shoot the attacker. Well, if the attacker wasn't armed, they would not have been allowed to do that here either. The level of force used in self-defense or in the defense of others cannot exceed the level of force being employed by an attacker.
This is Criminal Law 101 stuff.
The victim is dead as a result of his injuries.
The attacker used enough force to result in death.
This was deadly force.
I'd question the temerity of any lawyer who could possibly argue otherwise.
I suggest you read the laws on the subject of permissable levels of force used in self defense or the defense of others. Then we can have an intelligent discussion.
You stated that Canadian law prohibited other passengers from coming to the aid of the victim. I asked for a citation for that. I am not expecting you to provide one because none exists.
|
rockwall
Special user
762 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 10, 2013 09:30 pm
0
Quote: On 2013-01-03 13:25, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
As Balducci noted, the stations in question are open-air platforms at the north end of the line. I couldn't find a great picture, but this gives the rough idea of the Clareview Station.
Here is a column from today's Edmonton Journal
Quote: EDMONTON - You’re riding on the LRT. It’s Dec. 28, Friday afternoon, a little after 1:30. The train isn’t packed. Lots of people have the day off work, and early afternoon is never prime commuting time.
Suddenly, a fight breaks out. One young man attacks another, and what looks like a brawl at first, turns into a brutal beating.
What do you do?
In the days since John Hollar, known to friends as Jonny, was assaulted, online commenters and media pundits have rushed to condemn the 12 to 15 passengers who watched the fatal attack, and who failed to save Hollar. How, they’ve asked, could a dozen witnesses sit by and do nothing?
To be sure, we all want to believe we’re moral beings, with a responsibility to help our fellow citizens, even at risk to our safety. We want to believe that if we were tested by circumstance, we would do the right thing. But let us not trip over ourselves in a righteous rush to judgment.
In the first place, the shocked and doubtless frightened passengers didn’t sit passive. They didn’t ignore the assault. This wasn’t a classic case of bystander effect.
According to Ron Gabruck, Edmonton Transit’s director of operational support, at least one passenger, and possibly more, used the LRT’s internal emergency warning system to alert the motorman driving the train to the violence. The driver, in turn, called his control office, which alerted the police.
Police say two of the passengers went further, and actually intervened to stop the attack. Their efforts failed.
Police and ETS won’t say anything about the people who were aboard the LRT car with Hollar and his assailant. If we knew for certain that Hollar had been sharing the car with 12 strapping rugby players or rig workers, it might be reasonable to ask why no one succeeded in stopping the assault.
But let’s suppose the other people on the train included a more typical cross-section of LRT passengers — perhaps a mother with a baby in a stroller, an elderly man with an oxygen tank, or three teenage girls seeking Boxing Week bargains.
The assailant wasn’t deterred by the presence of witnesses or security cameras, nor by an announcement from the driver that police were on their way. Clearly, the only thing that would have stopped him was brute physical force.
Before joining Edmonton Transit, Gabruck spent 26 years with the Edmonton police, some of that time devoted to training other officers in arrest and containment techniques. Given the unrelenting nature of the attack, he suggests, it would have been difficult and dangerous for passengers to intervene.
“The accused in this case is a rather large man, and that would have been very intimidating. They didn’t know whether he had a weapon, or whether he was under the influence of some drug. It’s not fair to blame the passengers. It’s very difficult to subdue someone who’s on a mission, someone who is really intent on their objective. And we don’t know the history between them — what the motive was is unclear.”
Nor, he says, would it have been appropriate for the motorman to intervene, especially since the assault took place in the last car of the train, far from the driver’s compartment.
“Our operators are not trained bouncers. They are trained drivers.”
Hollar’s family has also expressed outrage that the driver, rather than ending his trip at the Belvedere station, stopped briefly, allowed the trapped passengers to flee to safety, and then continued on to Clareview. The optics of that do seem cold.
But Gabruck says a long CN freight train had blocked traffic all around the 129th Avenue intersection. The LRT controller, worried the traffic jam would delay police and ambulance in reaching the station, decided sending the empty car on to Clareview, three minutes away, would give Hollar the better chance. It’s hard to know, in hindsight, whether that was the right call. It’s also possible, given the ferocity of the attack, that Hollar might have died anyway, even if the assault had somehow been stopped three minutes earlier.
All this mayhem, let’s recall, took place in about six minutes. There was little opportunity for soul-searching. Everyone — the passengers, the motorman, the LRT controller — was forced to react as best they could, perhaps without fully realizing just how deadly and single-minded Hollar’s assailant was.
If we want to cast blame for the death of Jonny Hollar, we don’t need to look very far. Police have a suspect in custody, a man they arrested promptly when the train arrived at Clareview. Perhaps, instead of attacking the courage and character of those who tried to save Jonny Hollar, we should be grateful he was the only victim
This article spends a lot of time justifying the fact that no one tried to stop the attacker. Now, I would agree that if all the passengers were children or senior citizens pushing walkers, then maybe they were justified. Unfortunately, these stories seem more interested in defending their non-action by making un-founded assumptions about who was on the train. Also, the sentence, "Police say two of the passengers went further, and actually intervened to stop the attack. Their efforts failed.", really tells us nothing. By 'intervene', does that mean they yelled at the attacker to stop? Did they actually physically intervene? I know that when I was a bit younger and had 5 children, we would wrestle around in the living room. By the time the oldest was in his early teens, I quickly found that all 5 of them working together could successfully hold me down.
Now, I'm not condemning the people on the train for not helping because I don't know enough about the circumstances. But... I would also not be so quick to let them off the hook for letting it go on.
|
tommy
Eternal Order
Devil's Island
16544 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 10, 2013 09:32 pm
0
In England self defence laws or defences cover coming to the aid of the victim.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
|
Magnus Eisengrim
Inner circle
Sulla placed heads on
1053 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 10, 2013 09:33 pm
0
Quote: On 2013-01-10 15:54, RobertSmith wrote:
Quote: On 2013-01-10 13:59, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote: On 2013-01-10 13:57, RobertSmith wrote:
Canadian laws mandated that nobody was allowed to walk around the corner and stop a violent attack.
You clearly have no concept of Canadian laws.
Quote: Maybe the maple leaf on the flag should have a yellow stripe on it?
But you do succeed in being a buffoon.
Really? The analogy "walk around the corner" was in connection to what happened in the shooting at Walmart here in New Mexico.
Are you telling me Canada does in fact issue concealed weapons permits?
If so, I acknowledge that I was wrong.
Think no one will notice that you've changed the claim from
"Canadian laws mandated that nobody was allowed to walk around the corner and stop a violent attack"
to
"Are you telling me Canada does in fact issue concealed weapons permits"?
These are hardly the same proposition.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
|
balducci
Loyal user
Canada
227 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 10, 2013 11:52 pm
0
Quote: On 2013-01-10 16:30, rockwall wrote:
This article spends a lot of time justifying the fact that no one tried to stop the attacker. Now, I would agree that if all the passengers were children or senior citizens pushing walkers, then maybe they were justified. Unfortunately, these stories seem more interested in defending their non-action by making un-founded assumptions about who was on the train.
It made no such unfounded assumptions. The article suggested a few different possibilities. One was a train filled with strapping rugby players or rig workers, another was like the one you mentioned.
But even if it ONLY considered the case you mentioned (which it did not, it considered a couple of possibilities), strictly speaking even that would not be an "unfounded assumption". Really, what do you think the demographics are of those who ride the LRT mid-day? Students, seniors, and mothers with infants pretty fairly describes the majority of the ridership of the LRT that time of day.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
|
rockwall
Special user
762 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 11, 2013 12:59 am
0
Clearly, I understood the article differently than you do. I also don't think it would have taken a car filled with strapping rugby players to do something about the situation as you and the person writing the article suggest.
Also, I don't know the demographics of those who ride it mid-day, (which I think I stated), but the article DID say, "Lots of people have the day off work.", so it's not necessarily a typical day. Also, what exactly does 'Students' cover? College age? High School? Pre-school only?
But I will give you this. You're right, it didn't really make unfounded assumptions. My mistake. It did provide a lot of cover for those on board though who left a man to be beaten to death.
btw, I hope it doesn't appear that I'm slamming Canada. I've been appalled when the same or worse has happened within the US.
|
Magnus Eisengrim
Inner circle
Sulla placed heads on
1053 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 11, 2013 02:55 am
0
Quote: On 2013-01-10 19:59, rockwall wrote:
Clearly, I understood the article differently than you do. I also don't think it would have taken a car filled with strapping rugby players to do something about the situation as you and the person writing the article suggest.
Also, I don't know the demographics of those who ride it mid-day, (which I think I stated), but the article DID say, "Lots of people have the day off work.", so it's not necessarily a typical day. Also, what exactly does 'Students' cover? College age? High School? Pre-school only?
But I will give you this. You're right, it didn't really make unfounded assumptions. My mistake. It did provide a lot of cover for those on board though who left a man to be beaten to death.
btw, I hope it doesn't appear that I'm slamming Canada. I've been appalled when the same or worse has happened within the US.
In the comfort of my home, I am confident that I would have helped. I hope I would have.
Here is a follow-up article about one of the two guys who did try to help.
Quote: EDMONTON - What does it mean to be a hero?
What does it mean to show courage in a crisis?
Manwar Khan doesn’t look like the stereotypical image of a hero. But he’s an authentic hero to me — an ordinary man who found himself caught up in an unimaginable, horrific scenario, who did the best he could to help.
Khan is a soft-spoken, balding, 37-year-old IT professional who works for Alberta Human Services. He’s the father of two-year-old twins. He stands about five foot four. He came to Canada 11 years ago from Bangladesh, to study computer science at the University of Lethbridge.
Every day, he rides the LRT from his home in northeast Edmonton to his downtown office. Last Friday, Dec. 28, was a slow day at work, and he left the office early so he could take his twins to a doctor’s appointment.
He boarded the train at the Corona station. Everything was ordinary, he recalls, until the train left Stadium station. That’s when he saw a large man in a black jacket chasing a smaller man in white.
“I thought, ‘Friends are fighting.’ Because friends do that sometimes.”
Then, the two men sat down next to him.
“The taller guy started to hit the other guy in the face. I didn’t say one word. No one did. We didn’t know what was happening. The other guy was yelling, ‘Get off me, leave me alone.’ All of a sudden I saw blood in his face, and I thought, this is getting really serious.”
Khan didn’t know what to do. There were only two other people at his end of the LRT car, he recalls, a slightly built Asian woman and an elderly man, who appeared to be shaking with fear.
“The lady was almost crying, but she was courageous. She leaned forward and whispered to me. She said, ‘There’s an emergency alarm. You can hit the button.’ ”
Khan was afraid. The emergency button was at the end of the carriage, and the two men brawling were between him and the alarm. But he looked at the smaller man, who was flailing his arms, not even hitting back, and was suddenly reminded of his own son.
“What if this were happening to my kid, 20 years from now? I thought, someone needs to help. Someone needs to try. So I pushed the button.”
“The taller guy looked at me like this,” he says, making a fierce grimace. “But I didn’t care.”
At this point, says Khan, he was more worried about the woman and the elderly gentleman.
“The way there were fighting, they could have hurt that old man and that lady.”
He escorted the two away from the mayhem, to the other end of the carriage, then turned to ask the other passengers there for help. There were a mix of people, male and female, young and not-so-young.
“I’m five-foot-four, and the guy is maybe six-foot-two-inches, and he’s not a skinny guy, he’s a big guy. He’s the kind of guy you would always avoid in the street. So I asked for help. I said, ‘I need two people. I just need six hands to grab this guy. I was shouting, I was screaming, ‘Just come forward! Just two people!’ I was disappointed that no one stepped forward. But you can’t blame those people. They were just shocked. Some of them were screaming some of them were almost crying.
“When I looked at other people’s eyes, I could see they really wanted to help. They weren’t just sitting and ignoring this, but fear was stopping them.”
Finally, he says, one young man did step up to join him. Together, they went to the other end of the carriage, to try to make a rescue. But, Khan admits, his voice low, they didn’t quite know what to do.
“Now the fight got ugly, very ugly. But I couldn’t stop this guy from beating him. I just felt helpless. That day, I found out I was not a very courageous guy. I always thought I was.”
He thought about grabbing the man’s leg, so he couldn’t run away. Instead, as he ruefully recalls, he shouted, “I’m a provincial employee. I’m requesting you step back.”
For a moment, he says, his yelling distracted the assailant. But not for long.
At that point, the train pulled into Belvedere station. Khan saw a woman in an Edmonton Transit uniform standing on the platform with a cellphone. He waved at her frantically for help. When the doors opened, all the passengers got off and Khan rushed over to the ETS woman. She told him police were on their way — but not to Belvedere. Then, to his horror, the car doors shut and the train went on to Clareview. Through the window, he says, he could see the beating start again, as ferocious as ever.
Police arrested Jeremy Newborn, 29, at the Clareview station. John Hollar, 29, was taken to hospital, but died late Sunday of his injuries.
“I didn’t want to leave the train and leave that guy alone,” says Khan. “I should have stayed on the train. I failed to save this guy. I failed.”
The frustration, the regret, the guilt, the grief he feels is natural. He saw Hollar fatally beaten right before his eyes, and felt powerless to prevent it. It wasn’t a scene he ever expected to encounter in Canada, a country he picked as his new home in part because of its reputation for peace and safety. He wonders why there weren’t more transit security officers at Belvedere. If enough people had been there, he believes, they might have stopped the assault. Yet he knows it could have been hard for LRT dispatchers to realize, from the security camera footage, just how violent the assault was.
Could Manwar Khan have done more that day? Perhaps. And perhaps if he had, his two-year-old twins would be without a father right now. I think he was a hero, someone who acted quickly to protect others on the train, and to get help for Jonny Hollar. I think he was courageous, too, to share his story, knowing that some in the community might criticize and judge him for not doing more. We all needed to hear what happened on the LRT that afternoon, to understand how quickly everything unravelled, how hard it was for people to know how to respond. And we all need to hope that when we’re in trouble, ordinary, decent people like Manwar Khan will try their best to help.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
|
ed rhodes
Inner circle
Rhode Island
2885 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 11, 2013 03:32 am
0
Quote: On 2013-01-10 13:09, RobertSmith wrote:
Quote: On 2013-01-03 11:56, balducci wrote:
There seem to be very few details released about the story so far, at least that I have seen. So just a few random thoughts, and no second guessing of the officials on my part.
I wonder who rides the LRT at 2 pm in Edmonton on a Friday, near and heading towards the end of the line, as was apparently the case in this instance? Healthy young body builders? Or children? Seniors? Pregnant women? I know when I ride the LRT mid-day in my area, the latter three groups tend to make up most of the passengers. This could explain why so few actively intervened. Apparently a few passengers out of the approximately 15 present did attempt to intervene. Some physically intervened. Perhaps the rest were not really capable of doing so? Some of the others set off the emergency signal in the train, alerting the driver and the police. Probably several dialed 911 etc. I wouldn't judge them all without knowing more about them.
People should understand that LRT stations are typically above ground and may be a simple outdoor platform that is open on all sides. Some are like glorified bus stops. Often fares are paid through an honor system, and you do not have to pay a fare to get access (i.e. often there are no turnstiles or ticket takers).
Now, the Belvedere station involved in this story is roofed and its sides are (at least mostly) closed, but one can still hop off the end of the platform there and be outside on the adjacent street or grass or sidewalk in a matter of seconds. What I'm saying is that an LRT station in these parts is a far cry from a subway station which is relatively easy to shut down and secure, and it may be the latter that some here are visualizing.
Big Jeff's question about where were the police and why were there none waiting at the station, that was explained in the Globeandmail article:
"Police could easily reach Clareview Station, one stop north and three minutes by train. But Belvedere was jammed up – a lengthy passing freight train, running parallel to the LRT tracks, had blocked the road."
So if the assailant had decided to flee on foot from Belvedere, it seems he would also have been trapped on one side (apparently away from the shopping mall and residential area where the police were) due to the other train and the officials knew that. From the map, it looks like he would have been sort of stuck on foot where he was, and would have been fairly easy for the police to apprehend if they showed up within the next 5-10 minutes as seemed likely. Indeed, most of the surrounding area on the side the assailant was on is made up of parking lots and open fields, maybe an industrial strip mall or two. So I think he would have been rather easy to catch.
All that analysis and yet you offer not one comment regarding Canadian laws which mandate that the victim, as well as everyone on the train were legally prevented from defending themselves (or the victim).
Your analysis leads you to believe based on the geography he would have been easy to catch had he fled.
See that's where you and I disagree. Violent criminals are much easier to catch when they're laying in a pool of their own blood.
This is what the gun grabbers in the United States don't get. Repeal the 2nd Amendment. Pass gun bans. Doesn't matter. The right of self preservation is a natural right bestowed upon human beings (not just Americans) merely by having been born.
Quote all the gun stats you want.
Go ahead and say if someone else on that train had a concealed weapon they'd have just shot everybody else in the process.
Doesn't matter.
A free human being's right to preserve their own life can not be legislated. Subjects however...
I'm certain the guy who fired through the door at what he thought was a potential home invader felt he was defending himself.
I'm certain the guy who fired at the stupid kid with the camera felt he was defending himself.
I'm certain the guy who shot his son who was trying to sneak into the house felt he was defending himself.
There are probably others, but I don't collect these things. I just remember them when I've read them.
What percentage of bad decisions/good decisions would you accept? 1/100? 10/100? 20/100?
"...and if you're too afraid of goin' astray, you won't go anywhere." - Granny Weatherwax
|
tommy
Eternal Order
Devil's Island
16544 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 11, 2013 04:10 am
0
What do mean by accept?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
|
LobowolfXXX
Inner circle
La Famiglia
1196 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 11, 2013 04:15 am
0
Quote: On 2013-01-10 22:32, ed rhodes wrote:
Quote: On 2013-01-10 13:09, RobertSmith wrote:
Quote: On 2013-01-03 11:56, balducci wrote:
There seem to be very few details released about the story so far, at least that I have seen. So just a few random thoughts, and no second guessing of the officials on my part.
I wonder who rides the LRT at 2 pm in Edmonton on a Friday, near and heading towards the end of the line, as was apparently the case in this instance? Healthy young body builders? Or children? Seniors? Pregnant women? I know when I ride the LRT mid-day in my area, the latter three groups tend to make up most of the passengers. This could explain why so few actively intervened. Apparently a few passengers out of the approximately 15 present did attempt to intervene. Some physically intervened. Perhaps the rest were not really capable of doing so? Some of the others set off the emergency signal in the train, alerting the driver and the police. Probably several dialed 911 etc. I wouldn't judge them all without knowing more about them.
People should understand that LRT stations are typically above ground and may be a simple outdoor platform that is open on all sides. Some are like glorified bus stops. Often fares are paid through an honor system, and you do not have to pay a fare to get access (i.e. often there are no turnstiles or ticket takers).
Now, the Belvedere station involved in this story is roofed and its sides are (at least mostly) closed, but one can still hop off the end of the platform there and be outside on the adjacent street or grass or sidewalk in a matter of seconds. What I'm saying is that an LRT station in these parts is a far cry from a subway station which is relatively easy to shut down and secure, and it may be the latter that some here are visualizing.
Big Jeff's question about where were the police and why were there none waiting at the station, that was explained in the Globeandmail article:
"Police could easily reach Clareview Station, one stop north and three minutes by train. But Belvedere was jammed up – a lengthy passing freight train, running parallel to the LRT tracks, had blocked the road."
So if the assailant had decided to flee on foot from Belvedere, it seems he would also have been trapped on one side (apparently away from the shopping mall and residential area where the police were) due to the other train and the officials knew that. From the map, it looks like he would have been sort of stuck on foot where he was, and would have been fairly easy for the police to apprehend if they showed up within the next 5-10 minutes as seemed likely. Indeed, most of the surrounding area on the side the assailant was on is made up of parking lots and open fields, maybe an industrial strip mall or two. So I think he would have been rather easy to catch.
All that analysis and yet you offer not one comment regarding Canadian laws which mandate that the victim, as well as everyone on the train were legally prevented from defending themselves (or the victim).
Your analysis leads you to believe based on the geography he would have been easy to catch had he fled.
See that's where you and I disagree. Violent criminals are much easier to catch when they're laying in a pool of their own blood.
This is what the gun grabbers in the United States don't get. Repeal the 2nd Amendment. Pass gun bans. Doesn't matter. The right of self preservation is a natural right bestowed upon human beings (not just Americans) merely by having been born.
Quote all the gun stats you want.
Go ahead and say if someone else on that train had a concealed weapon they'd have just shot everybody else in the process.
Doesn't matter.
A free human being's right to preserve their own life can not be legislated. Subjects however...
I'm certain the guy who fired through the door at what he thought was a potential home invader felt he was defending himself.
I'm certain the guy who fired at the stupid kid with the camera felt he was defending himself.
I'm certain the guy who shot his son who was trying to sneak into the house felt he was defending himself.
There are probably others, but I don't collect these things. I just remember them when I've read them.
What percentage of bad decisions/good decisions would you accept? 1/100? 10/100? 20/100?
What percentage would you accept?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.
"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
|
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Sad News out of Canada (0 Likes) |
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4~5~6~7~8~9~10 [Next] |