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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
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On 2013-01-07 14:22, S2000magician wrote: Actually I did, but then I edited it. I was sure that too many people would agree with me! |
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FatHatter Regular user I'm here you're there and that's that. 137 Posts |
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On 2013-01-07 14:04, mastermindreader wrote: Wow! Obviously no need for further discussion indeed if what you have incorrectly gathered from this one is that I think laws are useless and everyone should fend for themselves. Nice projection there Sir. Very nice. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Your words, sir:
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The inescapable corollary is that eliminating such laws as child labor, building codes, etc. would not result in an increase in public endangerment. And that, I suggest, is ridiculous. |
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FatHatter Regular user I'm here you're there and that's that. 137 Posts |
So to my question earlier:
"Do you think if all laws regarding harming others were lifted 5 minutes from now there would be mass murder in the streets and skull bashing everywhere you look?" you would answer in the affirmative? By your post above my guess is you would answer yes. I'm asking you the question again, not unlike I had to state my position more than once that laws don't protect people, laws don't provide a way out from a life of abuse and, what laws do is set up punishment for those that do not obey them. That is what laws do. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On 2013-01-07 15:58, FatHatter wrote: I will posit that no intelligent, rational person believes that the murder rate would not increase if murder were not illegal.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
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On 2013-01-07 15:58, FatHatter wrote: If you seriously believe that laws don't protect the exploitation of children and provide immeasurably safer conditions in our society, I can only conclude that you don't accept that the Rule of Law is an essential cornerstone of our constitutional form of government. Bottom line, maybe it doesn't apply in Wonderland, but in the real world, good laws DO protect people regardless of your protestations to the contrary. If you'd like to see what a society without laws looks like, I suggest you take a look at Somalia. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
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On 2013-01-04 13:58, mastermindreader wrote: To be fair few wonder, and they lost a lot more votes that that LOL.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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FatHatter Regular user I'm here you're there and that's that. 137 Posts |
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On 2013-01-07 16:14, mastermindreader wrote: Again you fail to respond to the question, simple though it may be. Instead you persist in making conclusions instead of taking what I post as my position. I have not suggested a society without laws. That came from your mind. In the real world bad things happen everyday. Some you hear about and others you don't. The passing of laws has no effect on stopping these things. It's 2013, people are still killing and everything less that harms others. Man has found new and worse things to do to each other everyday. Laws haven't made it better. They have their purpose which I have stated repeatedly. If you wanna go on believing my position is something other than what I have presented have at it. |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
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Too bad about those silly Founding Fathers who believed that "We are a nation of laws, not men." Hi Bob, The dichotomy there is between laws and men, not between laws and no laws. I think what they were trying to say is that the laws would be fairly, equitably, and transparently enforced, and not overlooked to excuse a malefactor or used to oppress the innocent, at the whim of a ruler. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Of course that's what it means. But it also presumes the necessity of laws, and equality under those laws, as a fundamental underpinning of a free society.
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RobertSmith Veteran user 330 Posts |
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On 2013-01-07 12:46, EsnRedshirt wrote: I don't disagree with you. However, why make it easier? My background is in television production and journalism. I heard over and over again in school how the media has a right to audit public records etc. Yes, they do. But that wasn't what this was about. This wasn't a newspaper that audited the records and discovered there were a dozen felons with gun permits. This was a newspaper that published the records as a means to intimidate and vilify people who had done absolutely nothing illegal. I mean, what would people on the left say if FoxNews published on their website a list, or interactive map, of everyone on food stamps or welfare? They'd explode that the right is waging a "war on poor people." Here's the ultimate hypocrisy... A newspaper that publishes this information as a means of intimidating gun owners who exercise their Second Amendment rights, has to hire armed guards in order to protect their First Amendment rights. Good thing that stupid ol' Second Amendment is their to protect those stupid ol' journalists First Amendment, I guess? Robert |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On 2013-01-07 14:27, mastermindreader wrote: But if you hadn't acknowledged it, it would appear as if you'd never written it. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
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On 2013-01-07 16:50, FatHatter wrote: What you have explicitly stated is that laws ONLY serve to punish those who violate them and do NOTHING to protect people. That is demonstrably NOT TRUE as you can see by answering some simple questions- Have public health risks been reduced by the law that requires mild to be pasteurized before being sold commercially? Do laws that require people to pay taxes contribute to the public welfare and safety when those taxes are used to fund fire department, police, rescue workers and a military? Or is the only purpose of tax laws to punish those who don't comply? You're correct, though, in saying that you haven't suggested we have a society with no laws. You've simply stated that the laws to nothing to protect people, which rationally leads to the conclusion that they aren't necessary. That is not only demonstrably false, as the answers to the above questions prove, but it is also ridiculous. |
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RobertSmith Veteran user 330 Posts |
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On 2013-01-07 14:00, FatHatter wrote: I understand what you're saying. Laws, by nature, are not preventative, they're reactive. Like a police officer friend of mine once told me, "The speed limit is whatever you want it to be. Until you get caught." "People are gonna do what people are gonna do." - Yep. And the reason all gun owners don't go on mass shooting sprees is because they have a moral compass and a value for life. That's why probably 99.8% of those who own guns legally will NEVER, EVER, shoot them at another human being, regardless of what kind of gun it is or how many bullets it holds. In the same manner that drivers stop at a red light (most of them). I don't stop because the law says I have to stop. I stop because my value for life says that continuing on could jeopardize my very strong sense of self preservation. |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Quote: There absolutely would. The gangs which would love nothing better than to eliminate each other would render blood baths in the streets. No repucussions regarding assault, robbery, and more deviant crimes... Yup, mayhem of immoral acts will be visited upon that state. You must be completely ignorant how much rampant anger there is toward fellow men in this country right now. It would all erupt. Then of course ya gotta open all the doors to the prisons, cuz what they are in there for is no longer illegal.
On 2013-01-07 15:58, FatHatter wrote: The point you may have once thought you had before you started typing got lost in the sweeping foolishness which is your statement above. |
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RobertSmith Veteran user 330 Posts |
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On 2013-01-07 15:16, mastermindreader wrote: Only inescapable if one willfully ignores the obvious point he's making. He never once said we should eliminate laws. The point he was making is that many laws are reactive, not preventative. A law prohibiting murder does not stop people from killing. People who don't kill other people, do so because they know right from wrong. On the contrary, those who do kill, don't care what the law says. As he pointed out, "people are going to do what people are going to do." |
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RobertSmith Veteran user 330 Posts |
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On 2013-01-07 17:25, Tom Cutts wrote: They do that now anyway. The only difference is now there is a reactive law in place to punish them. |
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FatHatter Regular user I'm here you're there and that's that. 137 Posts |
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On 2013-01-07 17:18, mastermindreader wrote: ATTENTION! one more time, last time: "What Laws do is set up punishment for those that do not obey them. That is what Laws do." That is what I have repeatedly said. Know what it means? It means what Laws do is set up punishment for those that do not obey them, that is what Laws do. If you answer my question I'll be most happy to answer yours. Twice I've asked and received no response to my question which is: "Do you think if all laws regarding harming others were lifted 5 minutes from now there would be mass murder in the streets and skull bashing everywhere you look?" Is there a reason you prefer not to answer? |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Robert-
No, he stated simply that the only purpose of laws was to punish. He wasn't referring to "many laws," he was referring to laws in general. As I've demonstrated, law are often preventative (child labor laws, food a drug laws, building codes, traffic codes, seat belt laws, civil rights laws, etc. etc.) and the Rule of Law is one of the cornerstones of a free society. You know that. I think the only reason you are disagreeing with my point is because I made it. |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
Somalia has been without central government since 1991. Notice anything about violence and civil rights there?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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