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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Mentally Speaking » » Best pocket mental epic (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Ronald72
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Thank you all for your inspiration. It gives me more then enough information to research.

Thanks!!

best regards,
Ronald
rickmagic1
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If you want what is, at least in my mind, the best "mental epic" type effect, Fourth Dimensional Telepathy! I've seen Bob's version on his dvd, as well as others, and I developed my own handling from the original. This is on of the strongest things you can do for a group, and you can't get cleaner than a few small envelopes and some paper, business cards, or index cards.
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SamNJ
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While they share some common elements, it seems to me that the mental epic effects are indeed basically different from 4DT routines. In the former, for the most part the participant openly makes known her thought before it is revealed by the performer, whereas 4DT usually involves a p**k, sw***h and/or mis***l and the participant keeps her thought to herself till the end.
Amirá
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Quote:
On 2013-01-16 08:53, SamNJ wrote:
While they share some common elements, it seems to me that the mental epic effects are indeed basically different from 4DT routines. In the former, for the most part the participant openly makes known her thought before it is revealed by the performer, whereas 4DT usually involves a p**k, sw***h and/or mis***l and the participant keeps her thought to herself till the end.


Exactly. Mental Epic is about predicting thoughts. 4DT is about readings thoughts.

Precognition and Telepathy.

It bothers me when a performer cant communicate a clear difference between this 2 abilities. I saw in the past some performers that apparently got a thought from a participant´s mind and said "I have my prediction in here" , as if " I have my revelation".


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rickmagic1
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Ok, that may be the case, and they are different types of demonstrations...to us. I'm referring to what the spectator sees and will later describe; in that sense, and speaking completely from their lay viewpoint, aren't they similar?

I do reserve the right to be both ignorant and wrong...open to correction. Smile

Rick
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mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2013-01-16 11:48, rickmagic1 wrote:
Ok, that may be the case, and they are different types of demonstrations...to us. I'm referring to what the spectator sees and will later describe; in that sense, and speaking completely from their lay viewpoint, aren't they similar?

I do reserve the right to be both ignorant and wrong...open to correction. Smile

Rick


The effect on the audience is entirely different. Epic effects are triple predictions. The performer predicts what selections three people will make BEFORE the make them. In 4DT, the performer reads the thoughts of the spectators as they are projecting them to him.

To audiences, not just to us, there is a VAST difference.

It is essential that the performer know what type of ability he is demonstrating and there is no excuse for such phrases, that I hear too often, such as "Think of a word. Concentrate. I will now predict what you are thinking." THAT'S NOT WHAT A PREDICTION IS! That is an example of thought reading.
jimgerrish
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Bob:
Not to get into semantics, but I don't think Hen Fetsch exactly defined "Epic" in quite that way. For Qua-Fiki's newly published Desk Organizer Switch Box I worked out an "Epic-like" routine as a bonus. It is possible to present three examples of the mentalist's skills such as "clairvoyance" (seeing how much money is in someone's pocket or wallet), "thought reading", and finally "prediction of a random event." The various forms of Mental Epic devices (including Qua-Fiki's switch box) are each capable of demonstrating all three mentalist's abilities.
mastermindreader
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I agree, Jim. The presentation of Epic can be changed, of course. My point was that the basic effect is NOT the same as 4DT.

Hope you are doing well, old friend! I think of the Wiz Kids often.
Jacob Smith
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I agree with Osterlind's pieces, I really believe he has some of the best work on mental epic out there, that I have seen at least...I have to add in a little addition by Luca Volpe, who has a fascinating re-framing to the mental epic presentation in his book Emotional Mentalism that really power packs the whole presentation in my opinion.

-Jakob
David Thiel
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I hear what you're saying here. But I have done ME close-up for years...and put it back into my stage show about five months ago when I finally found one that worked for me. (The Osterlind model.) It's actually my closer now.

I've always had only success with ME, close up as well as onstage.

The routine and presentation -- as well as the effect on the audience -- are really dependent on how it is framed.

"I'd like you to think of your favorite place in the world. Think about how it feels to be there...maybe the scents. Think about the experience." (etc) THEN I write...and THEN I have them say out loud...what they were thinking. Same with the second frame. The third is simply a for*e as we all know. There's drama, anticipation and comedy potential in each presentation.

I've batted this around in several other forums (and been batted around for saying it Smile )...but I truly believe Mental Epic is a literal timeless classic. It may be my background showing up as "magician think" but, to me, Mental Epic is a very powerful effect. It needs to be presented with careful thought and care, of course.

I don't think the Koontz model looks like a toy at all. It's the only close up model I own...it's heavy metal and magnets. The Tenyo edition certainly looked like a toy...so did every other close-up ME I've seen. But not this one. Where else can you get a three reveal effect involving three audience members into one pocket?

I also agree that ME and 4DT are two entirely different effects -- although I wouldn't do both in the same show or set.

David
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PaulPacific
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Many years ago Tenyo released a plastic version of this trick in an attractive little case that looked like a little wallet or writing pad from the outside.
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Blessings on thee, barefoot boy! :-D
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2013-01-16 14:56, PaulPacific wrote:
Many years ago Tenyo released a plastic version of this trick in an attractive little case that looked like a little wallet or writing pad from the outside.


Yes. I saw one. But it looked like a little toy on the inside. (But, the again, almost everything Tenyo puts out looks like a toy!)
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2013-01-16 14:31, David Thiel wrote:

I don't think the Koontz model looks like a toy at all.


What DOES it look like, then? Certainly nothing anyone has ever seen before. Whereas on stage you can get away with things like look like they were specially made for presentational purposes, for close-up mentalism I think there needs to be a rationale for the props used and the only ostensible purpose I can see for mini-epic boards of any kind is to perform a trick.

I'm interested in how you explain the prop to your audiences and what you say if they ask what it is or where they can buy one.

Good thoughts,

Bob
quicknotist
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I can't believe this is still being debated! (And now I see it has been moved.)
I agree with Bob.
Even if you don't think it looks like a toy, this thing looks exactly like what it is: A prop, a device, a clever little gimmick which must (in the eyes of a spectator) hold the secret to the "trick."
Do you really want to present a "magic trick" which raises these thoughts in the mind of the spectator?
There are ways to present this type effect which do not rely on anything which looks pre-fabricated or like you got it off-the-shelf from some novelty store, available to anyone with a few dollars in their pocket.
Jacob Smith
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I personally love using a steno pad or note cards (ala Osterlind) and sticky note pads work very well too, Peter Turner briefly gave away a great application for stage that I feel most people miss (I know I did, but then again I am not that inventive). I think anything non-organic like a black board really takes away from the realism of the piece, though once again, if it works for others who am I say others aren't right.

-Jakob
David Thiel
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Quote:
On 2013-01-16 15:11, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-01-16 14:31, David Thiel wrote:

I don't think the Koontz model looks like a toy at all.



I'm interested in how you explain the prop to your audiences and what you say if they ask what it is or where they can buy one.

Good thoughts,

Bob


With respect: I've performed with it literally hundreds of times. I have never been asked what it is (since its purpose is obvious) nor have I been asked where they can buy one. Why would they ask this? It's simply an item I use in a demonstration. Why would I justify something when no one has asked? Do they ask me about my AREA book? My ParaLa*s cards or ParaPa*? Nope.

If it's reasonable that a prop could be designed for stage use (which it is) why could the same rationale be used with respect to a close-up prop? If I were using that plastic Tenyo prop, I can totally see a case being made for "toy." But the version I use looks professional and is exactly what it appears to be: a specific thing designed for a specific presentation. I think it may only scream "PROP" to the type of person who find any item suspect.

I agree that it's much more acceptable to use on the stage -- especially with the "plain as can be" Osterlind board. And I further agree that it isn't something people can identify. But I honestly can't recall a single time when it's been an issue in a close-up performance.

David
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Tony Iacoviello
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I can't keep a straight face reading this. sorry.

Bob's point, to move away from the appearence of being a magic trick use everyday items.
A mind reader should be able to read minds without anything special.

When you bring out things that have no place in the normal world, and use them, it may just be coming across as a magic trick.
This is fine if that's how you wish to present yourself.

If you don't think you are coming across as a magician, you may just be fooling yourself.

It is hard, but you should look at what you do objectively and question everything.

If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck, most people think it's a duck. They are not going to believe It is a penguin.

We are all masters of self-deception.

My thoughts,

Tony
rickmagic1
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[quote]On 2013-01-16 12:51, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:

The effect on the audience is entirely different. Epic effects are triple predictions. The performer predicts what selections three people will make BEFORE the make them. In 4DT, the performer reads the thoughts of the spectators as they are projecting them to him.

To audiences, not just to us, there is a VAST difference.

It is essential that the performer know what type of ability he is demonstrating and there is no excuse for such phrases, that I hear too often, such as "Think of a word. Concentrate. I will now predict what you are thinking." THAT'S NOT WHAT A PREDICTION IS! That is an example of thought reading.


Well said, Bob, and I see that point now. I guess in reality, the similarity is "they both have three". Smile

Rick
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David Thiel
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Tony: if you could really read minds it would look like this.

"Think of any word, number, place -- ANYTHING on or off this planet. Got it?"

And then you would simply speak the word.

You could have a person open a normal newspaper and read out loud what they were reading in their mind. I don't know about others...but my ability to actually read minds isn't in that caliber, so all of these things simply aren't possible for me. That's why people write things down on small bits of paper or on pads...they read from a book I've given them...they take part in tests I have designed under my rules. That's the way it is.

Saying that simply because a mental epic board -- pocket sized or stage sized -- is a magic prop because it doesn't look like anything people can identify is patently ridiculous. Of course it looks odd. But how many in the audience handle billets? How many have seen a billet box? How about a Devil Device...or...dozens of different "props." Do we exclude ProMys*ic stuff because no one's seen a die with ESP symbols on it before? Should we choose not to use ESP cards because people aren't familiar with them? How about tarot cards and pendulums? C'mon. It has nothing to do with self-deception. They are props...tools. They make for a more interesting visual presentation. (And no...I don't use all of the above. But I reserve my right to do so without being called down -- which is the whole point.)

The Mental Epic is simply one tool that I choose to use. That's my choice -- just as it is your choice not to use one.

I respect you greatly, Tony. I simply think we have a difference of opinion.

David
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Slim King
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Hmmmmm .... I also try to avoid anything that looks tricky or magicy....
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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