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juggernought Regular user 200 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-01-15 01:56, cirrus wrote: Your post does not seem primarily about that. In fact, first and foremost you seem to be providing a list of reasons as to why you don't like card magic. Not only does the content of your posts indicate that, but so does the very title of the thread. |
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Ronald72 Loyal user Holland 249 Posts |
That it's about the spectator not the magician, all the time.
[/quote] ?????????????????????????? SO what? What for news are you bringing here? Don't you think others have read books, been to lectures, watch dvd's, has a coach, goas to workshops or work with other magicians? So what again? Do you believe you are making a big break thru here? Imo a total pointless and unlogical topic especially about your limited believe saying card magic is about the magician and not the spectator. So what makes you the expert, what have you achieve in magic to state this as the truth? So to make it all a little smaller, it is your truth and you are in titel of that. Still left with nothing to contribute to our art and nothing to give at your friends in magic |
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Roger Kelly Inner circle Kent, England 3332 Posts |
Your post Cirrus,as interesting as it is, says, perhaps, more about you than the actual message you are trying to convey.
I think you may have reached your ceiling within this genre of our art. I agree with some sentiments of your statement in that the youtubers are potentially destroying our image with very poor examples of technique and displays of oneupmanship. However, to generalise it across the board is nothing more than an insult to those who spend hours polishing their performance to perfection to ENTERTAIN their audiences and involve, rather than control, the spectator in the magic. Good debate though. |
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Poof-Daddy Inner circle Considering Stopping At Exactly 5313 Posts |
I often find myself walking into a bar or gathering ( sometimes family sometimes not ) and someone asking me " do you have any cards on you?" "Can you do some magic for us?" They like it because I enjoy doing it and make it fun for everyone. I use a lot of comedy in my routines and play myself off as the "sucker" whenever I can. Most " sucker tricks " can be played off as " the guy who taught me magic once had me pick a card and this is what happened..." I use cards to entertain rather than to show off which is also why I don't do a lot of the " cool flourishy stuff" . My motto in magic is... Anyone can do magic, not everyone can perform it.
Cancer Sux - It is time to find a Cure
Don't spend so much time trying not to die that you forget how to live - H's wife to H on CSI Miami (paraphrased). |
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asherfox Veteran user 366 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-01-15 02:04, Erdnase27 wrote: Well, trust me. I love Ortiz' magic. I bought all my himber wallet for doing "Appointment in Samarra". I don't actually remember where is the quote from. However, I am pretty sure mr. Darwin Ortiz want his audience remember him as a card expert much more than a magician. 4 cards production is nice. And it is awesome for catching attention. However, there is no magic at all. |
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Bobbycash Special user Australia 694 Posts |
Let's also be clear, Steve isn't a performer. Whilst he has made tv appearences I would not classify him as a performer
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Erdnase27 Inner circle 2505 Posts |
But I would say that Darwin Ortiz, Martin Nash, Andrew Wimhurst among others(Giobbi, Tamariz, Lavant , Dani Daortiz etc. etc. etc. etc. erc.) are great performers... using a pack of playing cards.
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Bandaloop Regular user Dodging attacks for the past 195 Posts |
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On 2013-01-15 00:58, cirrus wrote: Actually, for the most part, the answer is yes. Most writers, when asked who they write for, will say themselves. Same with actors and acting. The reading/viewing audience is taken into account, but first and foremost they do it for themselves. |
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
Cirrus,
I have and still respect your posts man - even this one! So no insults from me at all. But let me pose something here: I can make ANY effect, cards or otherwise a "sucker" effect. I can do the same with mentalism as well and so can you. You mentioned gambling effects where the spectator always loses. Well, if the performer is presenting the effect as a means to demean the spectator then you are 100% spot on. But consider the gambling effects in the context of a demonstration of what happens when an innocent player meets a cheater, or perhaps a presentation in which the performer talks about what happened to HIM. Now you see that the sting is gone. As a side note, Scott Guinn has a lovely effect in which the performer always LOSES. In fact, many effects with a minor adjustment in handling can accomplish similar outcomes. But let's look at non-card effects and see where we can reach some point of commonality: The Endless Chain is very much about "control." But presentationalyy, again, how it is presented determines whether it is a con or a magic effect. The Three Shell Game: Phil Cass' routine focuses more on the loss of the money. He explains this in his presentation and his explanation of his particular routine. Disc Monte is a variant of Three Card Monte, not a desendant. The Cups and Balls can also be presented as a sting. While we magicians know better, most spectators see three cups on the table and they will associate it with that old game where you have to find the ball or pea. Earlier you spoke of forcing, controlling, etc. But perhaps it is a semantics issue. Controlling a card has nothing to do with controlling a spectator. The act of forcing a card is not an act of coercion as in forcing a spectator to hand over her watch and handbag surely. Yet think of a coins across routine as one of a myriad examples my friend: psychologically the spectator is "forced" [but NOT coerced] into believing one reality - the reality she perceives. When I teach magic, I explain to my students that there is one real secret to magic and that is perception of reality. Without this ruse, or force, or "control", or whatever you want to name it, magic and mentalism are impossible. So really, the question becomes not one that is a dissatisfaction with card magic but rather a fundamental issue with magic in general. What realities do the following examples all have in common?: 1. The illusionist who passes a hoop around a floating body to prove there are no wires, etc.? 2. The mentalist who destroys the paper by burning it? 3. The dude performing any sponge ball routine who asks the spectator where the sponges are? 4. The card magician who tells the spectator that she can change her mind when selecting a card or thinking of a card? 5. The escape artist who has law enforcement personnel and master locksmiths verify that the cuffs are genuine and genuinely locked? 6. Francis Tabary clearly showing he has cut the rope in two by holding the cut pieces far apart from each other? As I have been writing this, a routine came to mind that really encapsulates much of what you feel about card magic and yet it isn't a card effect at all. Roy Benson's Bowl Routine - which is actually called "A Lesson in Magic" - is IMHO the ultimate exercise in the very points to which you object to in card magic. I am saying my friend that ANY magic is impossible without the circumstances you have stated. That said, as others have suggested, it comes down to presentation. When I do DDLT for instance, there is no sting to it at all. When Harry Lorayne does About Face or Magician versus Gambler, there is no sting. But in each there COULD be if each performer chose to go that route. Come home Cirrus! You are missed!! Namaste, Vlad |
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Waterloophai Inner circle Belgium 1368 Posts |
Vlad wrote some wise words.
As you have stated yourself: "Ask yourself one question: are you in magic to make the audience feel good, or to show them how good your magic is?" As many others before here have stated: it all comes down in the end on your presentation. (pattern + pose, attitude) However, I can understand your frustation. Apart from the good magicians, we see helas (many) bad examples too. But is is not because there are bad examples that every (card)magician is bad or that card magic in general is bad. In my opinion you are very critical (for yourself and for others) in the positive sence. That is a good attidude and even a MUST for every (good) magician. |
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cirrus Inner circle his minions made 1751 Posts |
It's a fact that I just don't like bad presented magic... I just pick on card magic, because it happens there more often. The spectator to me, is the most holiest thing during a performance (after flawless techniques by the performer), they have to like it, and making them look stupid, isn't one of 'em.
My OP seems harsch, but it's going to grab attention (and I hope people read the whole thread, because Vlad's post here, is where the gold is). He said it better then I could ever have. I don't mean any harm, I just want people to get that everything lies in the presentation, not in the techniques. So, stop discussing techniques and work on your presentation. You don't need an invisible pass or the 100th way to control a card. The techniques are already there. You just need a good presentation to cover it all. If you can't find a handling that suits you, then you can invent one (or make a cleaner one). |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
Interesting - I read and read from the start of this thread, and finally - finally - saw the word "ENTERTAIN."
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2537 Posts |
A very thought-provoking post. So, here are a few thoughts. (And once you're done with this post, go back and read Vlad's post again.)
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On 2013-01-14 23:59, cirrus wrote: More effects are done with cards than with all other props. Therefore, there are probably more so-called 'sucker tricks' that are card tricks than any other type of sucker effect. It sounds to me as though the target of your barb is the sucker effect rather than card tricks in general. Quote:
Everything in card magic is about control. Controlling the card to the top... FORCING a card. No other type of magic (maybe mentalism) has so much negative language. Gambling effects where the spectator never wins. Many card effects can be framed as being about control, but they don't have to be presented that way. Card magic does use forces and controls as two methods, but they're supposed to be invisible. They're SECRETS. Quote:
I have said this more then once, there are only a few effects that I call magic. The ones where the magician isn't that much in control, or doesn't' force a card. Effects like out of this world, where the magic is happening to the spectator. This isn't a comment about card magic. It's an observation about show design and character. When you perform magic, your definition of magic is 'unexplainable, impossible events happen to the spectator, and the events aren't under the control of the magician.' But different characters necessitate different approaches to the magic effect. Consider Bob Sheets, Eric Mead, and Juan Tamariz. Each one is a distinctly different character. Each one could perform the same basic trick, and the nature of the magical effect could be different in each case. Quote:
Most cardmagic to me is nothing but a powerstruggle. Some guy with an inferiority complex trying to make himself important. Tommy Wonder said in his essay on failure effects that if you use magic just to one-up the spectator, you should give up on magic. If I were to buy your premise, I'd have to agree with you instantly. But I don't accept the premise that 'most cardmagic is nothing but a powerstruggle.' Again, this is a problem with magic in general, rather than card magic in particular. "Here's a quarter, now it's gone, you're a jerk." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoV0ZSiHIYg If you re-frame 'power struggle' as 'conflict,' then you may have something useful. It's much easier to create drama when you have conflict, right? Quote:
Ask yourself one question: are you in magic to make the audience feel good, or to show them how good your magic is? That's a silly question. Of course, I want to please my audience. But if my magic isn't any good, they're not going to have a good time. If you're a magician, good magic is necessary, but not sufficient to entertain the audience. (If you don't fool them, you can still be entertaining. But the audience will probably describe you as a comedian rather than as a magician.) cirrus, here's a challenge for you. Take a classic card trick that uses both a force and a control, and re-frame it presentationally so that a) the audience is completely unaware that a force and control were used and b) the presentation of the effect fits the definition of magic that you're using for your character in your show. You might start to look at card magic a little differently.
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
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mlippo Inner circle Trieste (Italy) 1227 Posts |
BarryFernelius
I agree with you, |
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slowdini Regular user 122 Posts |
Cirruss, I cant waste anymore time on your thread. Youre riding off into the sunset, and right into the fire. Sounds like youve jumped on someone elses bandwagon and youre whipping a dead horse. If you don't like card magic, don't look and don't do it.
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
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On 2013-01-15 08:38, cirrus wrote: Making a post offensive and insulting just to get attention? Isn't that the type of behavior you were arguing against? Quote:
On 2013-01-15 08:38, cirrus wrote: I think that's a dishonest comment. You've denigrated Card Magic many times on this forum. And all with the same bad reasoning and apparent lack of experience. sey |
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Turk Inner circle Portland, OR 3546 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-01-14 23:59, cirrus wrote: Cirrus, All generalizations are false...including this one (i.e., mine)....and yours (contained in your original post). To sum up your OP in 25 words or less...you hate card magic. I understand the point you tried to make. I don't agree with it, but, I understand it. And, for the record, I feel about the big stage "illusion" (so-called) magic similarly to the way you feel about card magic. However, neither of our feelings about a particular type(s) of magic necessarily makes any of it bad...except in our own eyes...and if we attempt to perform any such type of magic that we, personally, do not believe in or disdain. The audience will not be fooled by our failed attempts. Mike
Magic is a vanishing Art.
This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto. Eschew obfuscation. |
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cirrus Inner circle his minions made 1751 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-01-15 12:52, Steven Youell wrote: stevie, why do you always need to attack? Did I attack you personally? Did I write certain things about you personally? No? Well then... The argument, if you read the whole thread, was going nicely. My OP was written in a moment of emotions. You know them don't you? It's called feelings. now, be a good boy, and stay out of this. Greetings, your good friend, Cirrus |
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Gary T. Veteran user 375 Posts |
I'm a card guy, I'm not offended but I don't entirely agree with you. it's not all about one upping the spectators, people love card magic if you present it in a fun way, yes there's a lot of tricks that could be presented in a horribly rude way, but if you're nice to the spectators they don't see it that way and everybody has a good time.
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Bobbycash Special user Australia 694 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-01-15 04:21, Erdnase27 wrote: I didn't say they weren't performers. Merely pointing out that putting Steve in that list wasn't good for the sake of your argument. |
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