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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On 2013-01-15 07:31, Bandaloop wrote: Selfish ingrates! |
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the fritz Special user 647 Posts |
Card magic isn't any more about power and control over an audience than any other type of magic. If you have really given that much serious thought to magic the way you imply you have, cirrus, then odds are you have studied its rich history which you will know began hundreds if not thousands of years ago. Beginning with shamans, medicine men and the like magic was and is, at its very core, about power over others... indeed, power over not only people but forces of nature and the universe.
Singling out card magic over other types of magic doesn't solve the problem you have with creating an illusion of having power over others. If that's really the problem you have, then perhaps magic isn't for you. Instead of pointing a finger at magicians who perform card tricks, I would point the finger at myself first. Maybe that would help you clarify your power issue. Good luck, cirrus. It would be sad to lose a fellow magician, but you have to do what is best for you. |
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
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On 2013-01-15 10:16, Harry Lorayne wrote: When I use the word presentation, I mean as entertainment Mr. Lorayne. I would wager that others mean the same. Obviously, magic is a performing art and I think that some people struggle with it because unlike any other art, magicians and mentalists are behind the scenes AS they are simultaneously in front of the curtain so to speak. As a performing musician I can take part in the entertainment and experience it both as performer playing it and as audience hearing it. As a magician, I cannot experience the watching when I am performing. I hope that makes sense. Probably doesn't because I am having trouble formulating a coherent thought as I have just finished working on a piano piece by Kate Bush which always addles me. Best, Vlad |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On 2013-01-15 17:23, Vlad_77 wrote: Maybe not as obvious as some might think: see here. |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
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On 2013-01-15 14:43, cirrus wrote: I'm sorry that you feel I made an attack against your character. My post consisted of only two statements. Could you please tell me which one you feel was a personal attack? Quote:
Making a post offensive and insulting just to get attention? Isn't that the type of behavior you were arguing against? Quote:
I think that's a dishonest comment. You've denigrated Card Magic many times on this forum. And all with the same bad reasoning and apparent lack of experience. sey |
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motown Inner circle Atlanta by way of Detroit 6127 Posts |
Quote: I think rather than taking card guys to task (and yes I think you did it to get a rise out of people as so many do) your first post should have been about presentation and entertainment. That seems to be what's at the heart of your anguish.On 2013-01-15 08:38, cirrus wrote:
"If you ever write anything about me after I'm gone, I will come back and haunt you."
– Karl Germain |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
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On 2013-01-15 14:43, cirrus wrote: Why would you refer to my two statements as personal attacks and did not put these comments in the same category? Quote:
On 2013-01-15 00:24, alexhui wrote: Quote:
On 2013-01-15 00:30, RS1963 wrote: Quote:
On 2013-01-15 00:44, juggernought wrote: Quote:
On 2013-01-15 01:17, juggernought wrote: Quote:
On 2013-01-15 01:40, Ronald72 wrote: Quote:
On 2013-01-15 02:18, Ronald72 wrote: Quote:
On 2013-01-15 02:20, Roger Kelly wrote: Quote:
On 2013-01-15 10:35, BarryFernelius wrote: Quote:
On 2013-01-15 17:01, the fritz wrote: Quote:
On 2013-01-15 20:02, motown wrote: Quote:
On 2013-01-15 13:13, Turk wrote: All of these statements seem to be consistent with my two statements. So I'm confused as to why you singled my comments out as personal attacks and not these? sey |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
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On 2013-01-14 23:59, cirrus wrote:... Have a look at Hofzinser's tricks. Everywhere and Nowhere in particular. All about their choices, their imagination. Read the ad copy for the items sold by Ken Brooke. IMHO playing cards are a practical a vehicle for magic in performance. And just because you've seen sucker tricks and routines performed in a way that puts off audiences does not mean you can't be the one to do those same tricks a a way that audiences will enjoy.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Francois Lagrange Veteran user Paris, France 380 Posts |
Cirrus: You say "I know why I don't like card anymore..." etc...
Well, good for you. Magicians who don't match your stereotypes and don't share your views will carry on entertaining audiences.
Protect me from my friends, I'll deal with my enemies.
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fonda57 Inner circle chicago 3078 Posts |
Cirrus---I don't agree with anything you said, but you certainly have the right to say what you feel. I myself try to avoid using terms like "most this" or "almost all that." Go entertain your audience and have fun.
One thing though---If you know you will come across as condescending, and you feel you might offend, why do it? Just have fun. |
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MuscleMagic Special user 794 Posts |
If you really studied tommy wonders work you would apply his techniques and give your audience hours of non stop joy.
Notice how tommy wonder talks about building conflict, how many guys do that well? Tommy wonder also liked to mix things up, not just hours on non stop cards only, from card to ring box, to the 3 different watch vanishes (the final one being the most amazing), how about his coin sock routine etc. Adding small props (obviously done right) can help further the enjoyment of the spectator, finishing a ACR routine with Daryls card/rope gimmick, will leave a way more lasting impression then just finishing it with just another card to pocket or simply card rises again to the top. The reason I don't say card to wallet is because that's the more common effect. Whats important to realize, the spector when they come to a show today, has been exposed to more magic then a spectator coming to a show in 2003, think about it, people sit at home and watch youtube videos of magic tricks, some videos have millions of views. Comedians have the same issue, its harder to make people laugh when they been exposed to endless amounts of comedy, you must be a great presenter and very creative, the few that are, have better chances today to get out there. End result is, people still want to be entertained, its harder to do that today, and requires lot's of outside the box thinking, the few who master it will get out there and become popular quicker then ever, those who fail, will vanish (pun?) quicker. One of the things many do, is preform short tricks but all being within the same idea, take a card, I find your card, or 5 different routines involving producing the aces. You must really mix things up real good, watch and read lots of ideas, and put together a show that each effect is truly different then the other, if someone can guess where your trick is going lots of the magic is already over (read darwin ortiz designing miracles). Dai Vernon use to like to make people belive that the trick is going one place, just to shock them that it wasnt what they thought, in revelations there are several examples of that. Example of a nice mix of things Out of this world, so simple, old, but powerful, laymen have been posting this video all over the web https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzIHQiWMMyc (if you watch magic videos especially card effects, getting 420k+ views is not all that common especailly for a 5 minute clip, it should tech you something). ACR routine with a powerful ending, either folded card to ring box or daryls rope gimmick (use wallet for another effect), if you can master the card to sealed card box, you will really kill, ricky jay killed with it (most popular of all the clips of ricky jay and his 52 assistant and we all know how well Shawn Farquhar does with it, Penn & Teller show, Ellen etc (Shawns method etc might be different but the end user sees the same wow effect, a card in a sealed box, in his cane card is in same position where it belongs). Prediction that ends up in sealed env, in wallet (signed card). Open Triumph the way dani daortiz does it, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pCPTuA7vmU Ace rotine that involves the spectator cutting the aces (many to pick from, lorayne, Ammar etc), its 1000X more powerful then the magician cutting/producing the aces. The homing card trick -visual strong and not similiar to other effects One good 3 card monte effect (gaff cards ok, d'facer, or index gimmick) again, very very visual and magical. Torn and restored effect (either with card or newspaper) I can go on and on all day, but my goal was to give some examples of things that are different one from the other and what people have proven they enjoy, obviously cups and ball is a popular trick but few can master it and keep the people engaged, the new way Michael Ammar does it whereas a spectator is doing the magic (or so everyone thinks) is very cool and adds a nice twist. Everyone must adapt to the times, in this industry and in every industry, the few who do, win, the rest walk around yelling, screaming and complaining. Good luck. |
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MagicJuggler Inner circle Anchorage, AK 1161 Posts |
Is it just me, or is the OP acting more as a troll making a purposefully inflamatory statement to get a reaction? Any decent magician knows his logic is flawed and his generalizations false. This sound more like a bad magician ranting to me. If he thinks that's all that's possible when using cards as a medium for magic then he should just give up cards. Or otherwise give up magic, because his problems with card magic can be applied to all branches and mediums of magic. Magic is meant to entertain, and if you're a good magician you will accomplish that, no matter what medium you choose.
Matthew Olsen
I heard from a friend that anecdotal evidence is actually quite reliable. |
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juggernought Regular user 200 Posts |
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On 2013-01-16 06:51, MagicJuggler wrote: I have a feeling you are right. |
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Erdnase27 Inner circle 2505 Posts |
I don't agree that magic is solely meant for entertainment by the way. but that is another discussion alltogether. I do think however that you are right
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Magic Pierre Loyal user 212 Posts |
Wow. I haven't read this entire thread yet, but I have to pop off at the mouth here.
First of all, Joshua Jay includes a quote from Jery Seinfeld about magicians that irks me. Apparently Seinfeld said something along the lines of "I don't see what the big deal with magicians is. They do a trick, you feel like an idiot, what's the big deal?". Well how about this: in 1977 I remember my jaw hitting the floor when I sat in the Esquire Theater in Chicago and watched that very first battle cruiser in the very first "Star Wars" movie float onto the screen, apparently going on forever. That was special effects trickery. Should THAT have made me feel like an idiot? Magic is, in a way, a species of special effects. Should anyone feel resentful that the special effects crews are doing a good job aand fooling them? ALL magic tricks are, by definition, illusions, meaning that, what you think you see isn't what you are seeing. There is always a force, or a pass, or a false shuffle. There is always a fake coin, a fourth ball, a secret door. There is always a mirror, a gimmicked blade, a magnet. Always. Everything magicians do is an EFFECT to duplicate the miraculous for the spectator. There is an interesting corralary by the way, which is that, when you LEARN the "secret" of the effect, you no longer get to be dazzled by the effect itself, so learning how to do magic is a real sacrifice on the part of the magician. The magician gives up getting to think that something miraculous has happened, is face to face with the truly simple and mundane thing that has just happened (think of the secret of the chop cup. Christ was I shocked when I learned that). So, in my opinion, magic, and especially card magic, is like guitar. Yes exactly, when Clapton or Santana play, are they thinking "you poor clowns, you have NO IDEA how I am doing this. I'm just plucking strings!". Of course not. The joy, the ecstasy for them is being able to express themselves through the medium of their instrument, just as ours is getting to enjoy the music they play so extraordinarily well. In the same way, the joy of performing magic is expressing oneself through the art of magic, and the joy for the spectator SHOULD BE having the experience of seeing the miraculous happen right in front of them, even if it IS only a simulation. There is still admirable skill, even virtuosity, on display. To continue the analogy just one step further, the fact that one likes Segovia or Clapton or Santana doesn't necessarily mean they are going to like hearing their best friend's eleven year old son playing the guitar (or their best friend himself, for that matter). And if their best friend or his/her kid thinks that guitar playing is just plucking strings and people are idiots for liking it or liking to play, they are singular fools who haven't attained the level of art to appreciate the art for itself. So, just my opinion here, and sorry to go on for so long (and thank you for paying attention, if you have read this far)anyone who says that all playing card tricks are based on sucker plays an they don't like them for that reason, somehow hasn't seen into the deeper level of card magic. |
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Roger Kelly Inner circle Kent, England 3332 Posts |
Well said Pierre!
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Jack Crafter New user Kent, England 62 Posts |
Well said by Vlad and Pierre . I think that good, entertaining card magic avoids the adversarial approach the OP feels is prevalent enough to ruin the form as a whole. Some effects can be sucker effects and some of those can be done in a way designed to make the spectator look foolish yes, but that doesn't mean card magic isn't worth performing.
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RS1963 Inner circle 2734 Posts |
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On 2013-01-16 06:51, MagicJuggler wrote: It isn't you and anyone that would put in the subjects title card when it should be cards is an obvious troll. |
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cirrus Inner circle his minions made 1751 Posts |
All hail free speech.
In Europe: He disagrees, Let's discuss and make our points clear, if he still disagrees, fine. America: He disagrees, let's discuss until he agrees, otherwise... call him a troll. (sorry for the generalisation, but the only part of america I see, is this board. |
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MuscleMagic Special user 794 Posts |
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On 2013-01-16 18:39, cirrus wrote: In lala land, "Only I have free speech, anyone who disagrees with me doesn't respect my free speech, how dare they" You said what you said and everyone said what they said, no one asked for you to be banned or sent to a north korean slave labor camp, and thus the free speech was respected. You are one of those selfish types, you personally have a problem with cards so everyone must also have a problem, you personally have a point of view, but no one else should be allowed to. Its all fair game, if you cannot take back and forth criticisim I suggest you simply discuss this between you and yourself. Now, pick a card, any card.... |
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