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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You are getting sleepy...very sleepy... » » Learned behavior vs. altered state? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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mojo
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Clarksville, TN
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Relatively novice hypnotist here. Hopefully no one will get bent out of shape and we can have a productive discussion about this question, so here goes -

Most hypnotists and those interested in it seem to believe that hypnosis actually is a significantly altered mental state and that they can interact with various parts of the subject's mind, even in some cases causing the subject to exhibit certain behaviors against his conscious will or changing core personality traits. Others believe that the behavior of subjects that have been "hypnotized" are simply participating in behaviors that they have learned from watching others doing similar things and/or cooperating with suggestions for secondary gain (for example to be the center of attention, to do things they want to that they would normally be stigmatized for, etc.). Obviously Penn and Teller are in the latter camp, while those practicing "covert hypnosis" are in the former. I personally haven't invested greatly in either view, but am quite interested in sorting it out.

What's your view, and do you have any specific reasons you came to your opinion? If you can refer me to some literature in the "peer reviewed scientific community" that you think has great bearing you could direct me to, it would be appreciated.
Mindpro
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It's great that a relative newbie and novice begins a post asking for information by telling us how he wants us to respond.
Dannydoyle
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"Peer reviewed scientific community"?

I think it is funny that he/she doesn't have an opinion but wants to solicit others.

Put in some heavy lifting and form an opinion, then we can have a discussion.

Yep we should have it sorted out any time now LOL.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
dmkraig
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I don't care. I just do it.

It's all just a model of reality anyway, and the model is only for communication.

Why does it matter to you?

I mean this with respect and not as an insult: your question belongs on a philosophy website. Performance is what matters here.
mojo
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Mindpro - feel free to respond any way you like, I'm just hoping for a friendly chat.

Dannydoyle - happy to amuse you. Feel free to advise me on the best weights for my workouts. I have done some reading and some real world application, but I'm still on the scrawny side. I probably need a spotter.

dmkraig - point taken. I think it matters because if the altered mental state folks are correct, there is much more potential for hypnosis as a powerful technique for both therapy and entertainment than if the learned behavior folks are correct. I agree that largely the techniques work no matter what the underlying mechanism, but I suspect that it would be helpful to understand the true underlying principles to become more creative and effective.

Thanks for the responses so far. Based on the tone of some of the responses, I'm afraid I'm being perceived to be a smartass or troll or something. I seriously am just looking for some insight from those with more experience in this area (which is most of you). I'd have been happy to share the half-baked opinions I've formed so far, but I really didn't see any point, and now I'm a little worried that any opinion might get my head hoisted on a pike. Sorry if I've ruffled any feathers, that was not my intent.
mindpunisher
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Im not really sure what you are expecting by the question you posed. an "altered state" can be a learned behaviour. In fact hypnosis is all about "learning".
TonyB2009
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Mojo, I believe that there is no altered state. I know several very skilled stage hypnotists who share that view. I have not read any of the scientific literature in any detail, because I am not interested. I am a performer, not an academic.

I have no opinion on therapy. Perhaps an altered state exists in the therapists office. But this is a forum for stage performers.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2013-01-19 17:18, TonyB2009 wrote:
Mojo, I believe that there is no altered state. I know several very skilled stage hypnotists who share that view. I have not read any of the scientific literature in any detail, because I am not interested. I am a performer, not an academic.

I have no opinion on therapy. Perhaps an altered state exists in the therapists office. But this is a forum for stage performers.


I too do not believe in an 'altered state'. Suprised huh?

As for if it is "real" I say the following. It pays for my house, my pool, my Mustang and has allowed me to travel the world. Yep it is real enough for me!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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Actually you are all wrong and have got your wires crossed. The argument is whether hypnosis has a specific unique state of its own. An altered state is an every day occurence. An altered state by definition is any state outwith the normal beta waking state. Close your eyes take a deep breath and exhale you will move to alpha by defnition an altered state. Altered states can be be in induced by hypnosis, meditation drugs or fever. They can also be learned behaviours through conditioning etc. Teaching self hypnosis etc. There is scientific research that does show the brain do behave differently to suggestions than those that havent been hypnotized. But its been flogged to death on here.

You believe what you want to believe but I still am amazed when I hear hypnotists dismissing hypnosis as social compliance in light of the fact that a large number of volunteers in my case most exprerience complete amnesia for two hours on stage.

But its all been flogged to death on here. But at least use the terms accurately. Then we can at least all come from the same page.
hypnokid
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Or it could just be suggestion so not an altered state or social compliance. Use the search for lots of shouting and name calling.

HK
Too much style to be a stage hypnotist.
mojo
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Clarksville, TN
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Actually I usually try to search and read up before posting just about anything on forums, as you occasionally stick your hand into a beehive without intending to. Here, I'll have to admit incompetence, as I have trouble using the search function. It seems to want to force me to pick a category, but the categories don't seem to correspond to the section headings, so I gave up pretty easily. I need to go back and read up on how it works here a little more - I'm guessing there's a sticky somewhere - I'll have a look around for it. Sorry if this thread is recalling previous episodes of unpleasantness.
Owen Mc Ginty
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not a stupid user, a special user.
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I think it´s better if you don´t try to stick a label on it. Some prescribe to the state theory, others believe it is a process. I think that the different models have their benefits in different situations Smile
If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.
kasper
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I think its better not to get into hypnotism at all. The only person that benefits is the "hypnotist." Its just another form of power and ego trip. Enough already with the racket. Let me guess your all into Nlp also. Give it up! It was invented by Bandler and his gain. Nuff said
Dannydoyle
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Oh I guess it isn't a viable form of entertainment then huh? I better cancel my bookings. Thanks for the tip.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
kasper
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There are pros and cons to any field of interest people get into. I bet most folks here were alittle bit more level headed before they took an interest into these head games. Sure its fun playin with all this stuff and its techniques. Lets all not ahead of ourselves. The bartender down the block and the friend next door a great job entertaining us and helping us with our problems. They don't need to pitch a bunch of books or fill our heads with complicated jargon.

Cool! I should start a weekend seminar! How about $3000 a pop! Oh wait it will be $2500 if you book a week early. Cmon folks if ya get laugh at ourselves its time to get out of the business. Now don't get mad because the spectator "you" has full control of there mind.

Oh I know Im just using "suggestion." didn't know if I should leave that word in quotes or not. You be the "judge."


That will entertain "some".
Dannydoyle
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Why so bitter? You are laughable I admit.

But I guess I will cancel my year of bookings. Thanks for pointing it out. LOL.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
kasper
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Sure there are "altered states". Like that hot blonde that just walked past my window as I type. Now I forgot what I was goin to type! haha. Mixed with the fact of the smell of the burgers being cooked at the pub two doors down. Trust me they taste good because it was a "learned behavior" I know because I had them. But its only my opinion.

Sure! Learn all you can about about the subject. Learn from the field of advertising to give you different perspective.

Last but not least learn from women they are full of hypnotism and suggestion.

I remember my girlfiend asking me one day if I wanted tacos or spagetti for dinner one night. I said Spaghetti. She Said "I as hoping you were goin to say tacos." Then I said "why give me a choice." I laughed and found it interesting and funny. Ha how the mind works!
kasper
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No Danny I don't want to offend. don't cancel your bookings either.

Some folks get ahead of their selves. Not meaning anyone here. I do I'll admit it myself. We all defend our interests and hobbies. I got ahead myself by typing a name a someone I admired and making him look bad. Ive always addressed the flip side of every topic. I always get myself into trouble. Way to go!ha
kasper
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Its a tough business claiming your a hypnotist in a small town such as mine. Ha Since the practice grounds is next door at a biker bar. When someone puts you to challenge I always calm myself with the quote from David Lee Roth.

" You stick your head above the crowd and attract attention,and sometime, maybe somebody, will throw rocks at you. that's the territory. You buy the land you get the Indians."

Not really "politically Correct." or what ever they call it nowadays. I call it my "calming induction." TM

Its a good quote when posting too.
Anthony Jacquin
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Hey Mojo,

Good on you for opening this up and wanting to find out how hypnosis works. Many people seem to think it will never quite be explained. I doubt that.

Over the last 15 years I have steadily moved from an 'any altered state', to 'a unique state', to a 'levels of processing' to a 'relationship' based model and finally have ended up at a slight extension of the cognitive behavioural view of hypnosis. I do not expect to move further as everything I have seen in therapy and performance can be explained by this model, but who knows Smile

Read these three articles by my business partner Kev. They are a fresh take on the models and the science to date. The references provided are well worth following up and giving your own consideration.

http://www.whatsonmybrain.com/head-hacki......ypnosis/
http://www.whatsonmybrain.com/head-hacki......science/
http://www.whatsonmybrain.com/head-hacki......n-model/

Any questions get in touch.

Anthony
Anthony Jacquin

Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis
Updated for 2016

Now on Kindle and Audible!
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