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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
If you are doing a trick like that to "profoundly" influence his views about the nature of future events, I wouldn't call the effect either magic or mentalism. It is, rather, a good example of fraud. So the performer, IMO, is neither magician, mentalist or wizard- he is simply a fraud. I find it hard to reconcile fooling someone with "helping" him.
Mentalism is, by definition, a form of entertainment. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Funsway-
Rereading my last post, I realized that it sounded a little harsh. I am not saying that if you did that effect as described you would be committing fraud. Because I'm sure you would tell them afterwards it was a trick. Right? |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Yes - your assumption or claim that any other person's actions is fraudulent is not only "harsh," it is disrespectful and even slander.
My respect for you have now fallen to the gutter! If you do not understand how the same techniques used by mentalist can be used in "legitimate" pursuits then perhaps you should attempt to learn and broaden your perceptions. Guess what -- the world does not revolve around people pretending to do magic in any form -- conjury, illusions, mentalism or anything "for entertainment." Pretending at anything risks "folly of deception" and doing harm. Helping people address their fears and misconceptions through allegory in any form is not only legitimate psychological practice but firmly grounded in Communication and Instructional Theory. What I described is not a "trick" -- so why would I lie and tell anyone it it is? Did you actually read my post? Where did the word "trick" creep in? You claim -- "Mentalism is, by definition, a form of entertainment." Whose definition? You previously said that if a spectator thinks something is Mentalism it is. I offered this "real life" example only because the discussion had set to balance "mentalism vs. mental magic" against context -- implying that "mentalism" (as perceived by the spectator) would sustain even in a contextual shift. I have demonstrated that this is not necessarily true -- that the labeling of something as either "magic" or "mentalism" by a spectator (or decision not to) can exist outside the "world of entertainment." Regardless, in my consulting career over five decades I have dealt with more than a hundred thousand business owners and have never had call to lie or misrepresent anything, nor make any false promise or claim, nor offer a solution based on anything but the needs of the client. In many other cases not described I used either conjury or a "mental effect" for illustration or to focus attention -- and, of course, they knew it was a "trick." I also told stories and created imaginary scenarios. Mostly what I did was challenge false perceptions until we were dealing with "real problems" rather than delusions or excuses. I have written books on the subject -- perhaps you should read one. You go on stage and "pretend at" doing something mentally extraordinary. What is it you are pretending at? Is everything in your life a "trick?"
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Smoking Camel Inner circle UK 1039 Posts |
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On 2013-01-31 20:34, funsway wrote: What it is would be dictated by the frame and context you decide. In your example....If you were a "business consultant" you may be pitching this guy on being an astute trouble shooter that can quickly identify problems - this "aside" with the posit note serves as a convincer for your credentials and skills. Other examples may be - "here's how astute...... I am show me" 1) Last years cash flow 2) this years business plan 3) this years forecasts and I can tell you what will be in your bank today. Or how about - your a security systems tester pitching the client on improving his firms security. You tell him that you've spent the last 10 days testing various aspects of his security and have found soem weak spots. You then produce an envelope and casually ask - what would you say the most sensitive piece of info is that he really wants to keep secret. You then remove a sheet of paper from the envelope and it contains the info he has just said. Or the most famous example of all......... Derren Brown at the dog tracks.
I no longer smoke camel cigarettes.
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granterg Special user 593 Posts |
It seems that Funsway is doing mentalism outside of an entertainment setting.
That is okay, but he better make sure to tell his clients that what he does are tricks. Just my opinion. granterg |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
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On 2013-02-01 10:35, granterg wrote: I repeat -- the described effect was not a "trick" -- nor do I consider it mentalism. The point is that today many people might label it as mentalism, even though I did not claim to be a mentalist or magician, nor announce that I planned to do any such effect. As noted, on many occasions I would use either conjury or mentalism as part of a presentation or interview -- and in a way that the observer knew it was a trick, or clarified afterwards. Here there is no "trick" and the observer/participant might call it anything. If they choose "mentalism" does that make it so? Soon you will be able to amaze people by doing math on a scrap of paper or in your head (no calculator). Does that make it mentalism because they are conditioned to apply that term to anything "mental" they don't understand? If you use mnemonic methods to remember people's names, do you have to tell them you "did a trick?" If you know where a person was born because of their accent, do you have to say, "It's just a trick?"
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Crowslide New user 50 Posts |
Funsway..
Question: If the participant in the above scenario asked you to explain the exact method you used to make those combined actions occur..would you? Or would you skirt the full truth? "If you know where a person was born because of their accent, do you have to say, "It's just a trick?"" Well.. I don't have to say it's just a trick.. but how do they experience it if I refuse to say (truthfuly)how I've done it? As a trick..or mentalism.. or ? |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Wow! Must have touched a nerve.
So you are saying it is not a "trick" to reveal a predictions stating ""At 7:42AM on March 21st you will make the statement that you must fire your son." And you are further using that in order to "profoundly influence" his ideas about the nature of the future. Finally, you clearly state that you are not doing this to entertain. I don't view this as mentalism. But, then again, I have no idea what "conjury" is, either. No such word that I'm aware of. So I guess I have no idea what you are talking about. But then again, as you have repeatedly pointed out, you aren't a performing mentalist and you've often conveyed a certain level of disdain for those of us who are concerned with little details like business, doing shows, etc. If I'm wrong, please correct me. Sorry if I upset you, but if you think that mentalism is something that should be used to sway people to your way of thinking about life and to influence them to act accordingly, I can only say that I profoundly disagree. Peace. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
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On 2013-02-01 12:34, Crowslide wrote: Of course I would explain the exact method -- that is the entire point -- to make the client aware that the future of the business can be controlled and made predictable. Why is there even a hint that I would "skirt the whole truth?" Where does that come from? Why would you presume that I would lie to a client under any circumstances? As an "entertainer" I might offer all sorts of fictions -- as a business professional there is no room for falsehood or evasion. "Getting to the truth" is the entire purpose of the interview. But, the "method" has nothing to do with mentalism, or being psychic or any method "beyond the ability of the owner." It is exactly because this owner was externalizing the problem and looking for something to blame for failure that require a "shock" to gain attention and focus. Once this client accepted by "his own words" that he was responsible for everything that occurred I was able to help him. Firing is son was just one step. The relevance here is that events that might be considered "mentalism" in one context are just "elements of persuasion" in another. Please remember that I posted this example in response to the statement by Bob -- "I see your point and agree with the general sentiment. The problem, though, is once you take mentalism out of the context of entertainment, it is no longer mentalism. " I offered this in contradiction -- pointing out that it is the context of mentalism that makes something mentalism, not the other way around. An "effect" does not stand as "mentalism" on its own strength. Unfortunately, many people apply a term such as "mentalism" or "magic" or "paranormal" as an excuse for not seeking the truth.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I'm completely lost now...
you would explain a mentalism effect/technique "to make the client aware that the future of the business can be controlled and made predictable." how so? if business can be controlled and be made predictable - and you could do that, and do it all the time - you'd very an extremely rich man...
I've asked to be banned
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
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funsway wrote: Because that is exactly what is implied by the following statement you made: Quote:
Here the "client" is helped profoundly by realizing that future outcomes are not a matter of chance or "magic" but of changing past perceptions and acting in congruent ways. Nothing there to indicate that the person was aware that he what you did wasn't "real." But, again, mentalism is a performing art whose purpose is to entertain. And that is clearly not what you are talking about, which has NOTHING to do with the topic of this thread- i.e. a theatrical audience's perception of mentalism as opposed to "mental magic." |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
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On 2013-02-01 12:34, mastermindreader wrote: No -- I am just amazed that your first response to something you apparently do not understand was to claim the activity was fraudulent. -- But thanks for now validating my point that "mentalism" out of an entertainment context may not be mentalism no matter what the claim. This leaves you to explain your previous claim (opinion) that "mentalism" is a matter of viewer perspective. Quote:
So you are saying it is not a "trick" to reveal a predictions stating ""At 7:42AM on March 21st you will make the statement that you must fire your son." And you are further using that in order to "profoundly influence" his ideas about the nature of the future. Finally, you clearly state that you are not doing this to entertain. -- correct on all three points. However, it was not a "prediction" at all -- just a statement of what would occur. When it did occur he realized both how transparent his problems were and that "being in control" could produce predictable results. He certainly "entertained" some new ideas and perspectives, but my purpose was not "to entertain." SInce you apparently still do not believe these statements to be true, would it not be better to ask for clarification rather than attack my character? Quote: we agree on this -- which is why I posted it -- to counter your statement that mentalism would remain congruent in a change of context.
I don't view this as mentalism Quote:
But, then again, I have no idea what "conjury" is, either. No such word that I'm aware of. So I guess I have no idea what you are talking about. -- I have used this term many times in previous posts without any "misunderstanding." It is from the book "Fain Faire Sooth" to provide a distinction between the various types of performance magic. Since many mentalists wish to pretend they are not magicians a different term is required for magic grounded in physical properties and those grounded in mental abilities. If you have a better term I will be happy to consider it. As you "have no idea what I am talking about," why did you choose to claim the activity was fraudulent? Quote:
But then again, as you have repeatedly pointed out, you aren't a performing mentalist and you've often conveyed a certain level of disdain for those of us who are concerned with little details like business, doing shows, etc. -- Wrong again! True, I am not trying to make a living by performing mentalism for entertainment, but have performed mentalism type effects for entertainment for more than 57 years. I clarified my experience out of respect for those like yourself who perform mentalism for a career. My opinions and views of the importance, relevance and impact of mentalism effects will be different from yours since our experiences are different. I wish that each reader can evaluate our comments as "necessarily different" rather than "in opposition." I would offer that my experience with influencing people through astonishment is as great as yours -- just different. "different" does not translate as "wrong." Where you get any idea of "distain" is beyond me. I have stated and will again that the requirements of business may necessitate some delusion of the "purity" of performance magic as an art. This is a practical reality -- and I have agreed with many of your statements in regards to decisions a "career professional" must make. Rather than "distain" I salute your ability to apparently keep the various pressures/choices in balance. I do, however, frequently question those who claim to make performance choices based on "best mentalism" when they clearly make choices based on "getting the next gig." No judgment -- just an attempt at clarity. I do the same on other forums with a different magic focus. What I distain is contradictions, faulty universal claims, deliberate obfuscation and personal attacks when an opinion differs from your own. Quote:
If I'm wrong, please correct me. Sorry if I upset you, but if you think that mentalism is something that should be used to sway people to your way of thinking about life and to influence them to act accordingly, I can only say that I profoundly disagree. -- why do you feel a need to make a false claim about what I said or think? I do not think that -- have never said that -- have never implied that. I used persuasion techniques to influence people -- at their request. It's called "Permissive Salesmanship." The fact that the methods may resemble mentalism does not make them "mentalism." Much of it is based on the Dialectic Method dating back to Plato and Aristotle. However, much of life is about "swaying people" and "influencing them to act." -- and to avoid being influenced in a fraudulent manner by others. ..................................... I fully agree that Mentalism should not be used to sway others to "your way of thinking" -- which should apply to attempting to leave an audience thinking you actually have paranormal abilities. I would be happy if the term "mentalism" did only apply to performances for entertainment, but our audience's beliefs are influenced by many factors. They may apply the term to magic effects that are not mental in nature or mysterious at all. So, we are left with the quandary -- does the opinion and claims of the audience make something "mentalism" or not? More importantly, does the opinion of the audience as to your being a mentalist influence their perception that mentalism has occurred? Apology accepted. I would not bother to participate in this Forum except for respect for those trying to sustain mentalism as a performing art. I just ask for respect in kind.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-02-01 12:34, Crowslide wrote: Of course I would explain the exact method -- that is the entire point -- to make the client aware that the future of the business can be controlled and made predictable. Why is there even a hint that I would "skirt the whole truth?" Where does that come from? Why would you presume that I would lie to a client under any circumstances? As an "entertainer" I might offer all sorts of fictions -- as a business professional there is no room for falsehood or evasion. "Getting to the truth" is the entire purpose of the interview. But, the "method" has nothing to do with mentalism, or being psychic or any method "beyond the ability of the owner." It is exactly because this owner was externalizing the problem and looking for something to blame for failure that require a "shock" to gain attention and focus. Once this client accepted by "his own words" that he was responsible for everything that occurred I was able to help him. Firing is son was just one step. The relevance here is that events that might be considered "mentalism" in one context are just "elements of persuasion" in another. Please remember that I posted this example in response to the statement by Bob -- "I see your point and agree with the general sentiment. The problem, though, is once you take mentalism out of the context of entertainment, it is no longer mentalism. " I offered this in contradiction -- pointing out that it is the context of mentalism that makes something mentalism, not the other way around. An "effect" does not stand as "mentalism" on its own strength. Unfortunately, many people apply a term such as "mentalism" or "magic" or "paranormal" as an excuse for not seeking the truth.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-02-01 14:09, IAIN wrote: Nope - it isn't "mentalism" at all -- which is the point of the discussion. The fact that Mentalism effect often use persuasive techniques does not mean that all persuasive techniques are mentalism. You have made some very invalid assumption here ... Rich!! This presumes that I would charge a lot for my services. The failure rate of businesses in America exceed 90% -- not even counting hidden Internet ventures. Most owners do not take the steps to make their ventures either controlled or predictable. It is not a secret formula: Organizing, Planning, Orchestration and Reporting (learning from error). Mentalism implies doing something beyond "normal abilities" Most businesses fail because the owners are unwilling to do the things necessary to insure success. Yes, I did build seven business of my own -- all successful in that they achieved the objectives set out at inception. They did not all "make a lot of money" since that was not the objective. My greatest "impact" was preventing people from going into business when they were unprepared to do so. Great -- but doesn't pay very well.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Funsway-
It appears that we are talking past each other rather than to each other. I still fail to understand many of your statements, such as " it was not a "prediction" at all -- just a statement of what would occur." That IS a prediction by ANY definition of the word. As was said in Cool Hand Luke- I think what we have here is a failure to communicate. For what it's worth, though, I don't doubt your passion for the art in the least and apologize for the inference that your well intentioned use of mentalism techniques is fraudulent. Good thoughts, Bob |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Yes, I should have clarified further rather than just respond. In a general sense a "prediction" is an announcement of what will occur, but that any concept of "predicting the future" implies a guess, hope or propensity for what MIGHT occur.
I would suggest that within a magic performance the audience treats a "prediction" as an expectation of what form a trick will take. After all, if a person could actually predict the future they wouldn't be pretending to do so on stage. I do not find any "prediction effect" to be very powerful Mentalism, and not very good Mental Magic either (opinion) Within a Mentalism a prediction written on a piece of paper is foreshadowing of an effect in which a spectator does something and the performer pretends he knew of it in advance. Any entertainment comes from how impossible the "trick" is made to appear rather than the accuracy of the claim itself. It seems that often a slightly inaccurate prediction is better received than perfection. If instead the opened paper would read, "you will die someday," or "the sun will rise tomorrow," it would not be very entertaining despite being very accurate. These would be treated by a spectator as a "statement of fact" rather than a claim of clairvoyance or future sight. In the offered example the client did not treat my written statement as a "prediction," but as a statement of a logic result of a controlled series of actions and decisions. If I had said, "someday you will realize that you son should not be part of this business" it would be treated as a prediction and ignored. Here, the delayed "reveal" was required after the client had voluntarily reached that conclusion on his own. He did not know why I had written something down or even expect to ever see it. To me it was not "a prediction" just as it was not Mentalism. I would suggest that the perceptions of the spectator/audience makes of a statement a"prediction" of a future possibility or a goal to be achieved. Is a written business plan a prediction, a wish list or checklist of activities? ................... to clarify your last statement -- I was not using "mentalism techniques" at all. IMHO they cannot be mentalism techniques unless the spectator knows that I am a Mentalist and am intending to demonstrate some mentalism effect. By analogy, cutting a piece of wood may be carpentry, vandalism, sculpture or preparing for a fire. None of the tools or techniques employed define the purpose or desired outcome. "Peeking" may be a Mentalism technique, but there is a big difference between peeking at a palmed billet and peeking down a lady's blouse.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Crowslide New user 50 Posts |
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On 2013-02-01 15:20, funsway wrote: Funsway- If you reread my original question there is a distinct lack of presumption on my part. I asked the question because I did not know the answer and was curious about your opinnion and approach. If there was a better way to ask the question without ruffling feathers, I'd be open to hearing it. I thought we were all discusion our varried oppinions, not making personal attacks and insinuations. I am genuinly interested in each of the thoughts presented here. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Methinks all of this points up how poor the Internet is as a vehicle for communication. If we had been discussing these issues face-to-face we would have known and understood the confusion, irony, humor, etc. of statements made. Here the wording is open to interpretation and we (me mostly probably) assume that the poster had read all of the posts, when in fact may be responding to s specific post.full truth"
I am beginning to accept that folks say things in an Internet post they would never say in person -- and that one should never get too upset over any single post. I have been chatting with some friends involved in On-Line teaching. They say that the modern trend is for a poster to always positioning themselves in some positive way before making a statement, often by attempting to minimize the other person's view. Additionally, the asking of a general question risk loosing the thread, so attempts are made to ask a focused question that may seem weird out of context. This is all sad in my opinion, lining for the day in which folks just said what they meant without making any assumptions at all. Now, if we were actually mentalists ... Just rambling -- I am ready to move on. Those wishing to learn more of my life experience can communicate by PM or wait for the book
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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ParaLabs - Thomas Special user 913 Posts |
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On 2013-02-02 07:29, funsway wrote: The shared life experiences of Bob C. were the most valuable lessons I learned in all my years in mentalism. Just saying, ... Cheers Th. |
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
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On 2013-02-02 11:20, ParaLabs - Thomas wrote: Ditto.
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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