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mfeld Elite user San Francisco 457 Posts 
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We could, of course, look to some of the primary sources we're debating.
The following appears in David Roth's Expert Coin Magic, pg. 10 Quote:
The IDEA of the shuttle pass is very old. SImply substituting one coin for another as you apparently toss it from hand to hand it, in fact, a shuttle pass. David's handling is a very graceful and firmly convincing way of doing this move at the fingertips. Kaufman and Roth acknowledge that the idea of switching a coin from hand to hand is very old. But that doesn't stop Roth from being the inventor of the shuttle pass we know and love today. The idea is old, but his particular method (his particular choice of palms, productions and movements) is definitely his creation, and many many magicians have based their work off the particular switch Roth created.
Michael Feldman
www.michaelfeldman.com Or follow me on Twitter - @magicianmike And Instagram - @magicianmichaelfeldman Check out my newest book with Ryan Plunkett: A New Angle https://www.ryancplunkett.com/project/anewangle |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts
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I thought my description was clear enough ...
you pretend to place one of the RH coins in the left hand with a Shuttle move while nesting the EXP [ and revealing instead the just Stolen coin. I sometimes do a Flying Shuttle if repeating the Pass. There is also what might be considered a False Shuttle Pass. With a coin in each hand, the coin in the Left Hand is apparently placed in the Right Hand to hold now two visible coins -- actual the split Shell/coin as the empty Left Hand draws away -- that coin being Ditched prior to the Move. It is False because there is no coin in the passing fingers. Once the audience is conditioned to the Shuttle action from hand to hand. Some readers may recognize these Moves from "T.U.C. Appreciation" where the TUC replaces the older Exp [ and Coin. For example, a Slight called ShuttleFlip is used in several effects -- all based on the Birch Stack. Did I "invent" that Sleight because I published it first? Perhaps I am confused as to what a Shuttle Pass is as limited to what Roth did. I never thought it so restricted and am influenced by having performed these Shuttle moves for decades before ever seeing Roth's DVD. Perhaps you can PM me a description of what you consider to be a Shuttle Pass -- then we won't be at cross-purposes. I'll add you to the list when I unpack the manuscript.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4674 Posts
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I am still confused. This is what you first said: "The right hand displays two coins with the left hand open and EMPTY. One of the RH coin is slid to the fingertips and visibly placed on the Left Palm -- the RH retreating and displaying a single coin, i.e. there is now visibly a single coin in each open palm."
So this is not a shuttle pass. In order for it to be a shuttle pass, the left hand would have to be secretly concealing a coin, and ONE coin displayed in the right hand. The right hand then approaches the left, and pretends to dump its coin into the left hand. The LH now pretends to take that coin but actually reveals its own coin and places it on the table. The RH now conceals the coin that was previously in view. In this case the motivation for the move would be to apparently move the coin from right to left. Roth also uses it as a way to get one ahead - "It started here (pretending to place the coin into the left hand), and jumped over to here (actually putting the left hand's coin back into the right hand, which gets him one ahead. He has motivation for "moving" the coin from one hand to the other. Now, a ULILITY SWITCH uses three or more coins. One coin is concealed in the left, while the RH holds three. The RH appears to dump all three coins into the left hand, but secretly retains one. The left hand has three coins, one coin has been substituted for another.That was the popular move of the era, and this is how Roth's shuttle pass evolved. I was having trouble following your description of nesting a { , a shuttle move, and revealing a stolen coin. I am guessing you meant that you were concealing a coin in the LH, and pretending to dump the shell frm the RH to the LH while nesting it. I'm sorry, but that isn't a shuttle pass. Its not a utility move, its a sequence. But again, I may have misunderstood, and will be glad to wait for a copy of the manuscript, or as I said, if you can get me the title, I am sure it can be found in Kalush's library.
S.E.M. (The Sun, the Moon, and the Earth) is a sun and moon routine unlike any other. Limited to 100 sets, here is the promo:
https://youtu.be/aFuAWCNEuOI?si=ZdDUNV8lUPWvtOcL $325 ppd USA (Shipping extra outside of USA). If interested, shoot me an email for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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The Roth Shuttle Pass makes its published debut in his lecture notes and was central to his coins across routine. It handles both a cleanup and setup function all the while the audience is watching what appear to be one coin and two empty hands. Try a minimal version of the routine from 1976 using just two coins as far as the audience sees. Notice how the Shuttle Pass cleans up one hand and preps the other for the next transit. Then try that same routine using what appear to be a silver coin and a Chinese coin. Between transits you can handle them both and more - or use the Roth Shuttle Pass as designed along with a special* extra coin.
IMHO the Roth Strategy of using one coin in display during dialog rather than several in action merits its place in our toolkit. Use a Chinatown gaff in that mixed across problem above.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-02-18 21:04, Michael Rubinstein wrote: Well, it is clear you intend to divine anything you don't like/understand as "not a Shuttle Pass." I was attempting to be vague so as not to violate the limitations of this forum. You apparently have no such restrictions on revealing methods on an open forum. Regardless, if you wish to restrict on Roth's behalf the term "Shuttle Pass" to some specific and austere figure positions, go for it. I will continue to post and publish use of the Shuttle Move to include any sleights in which an object is apparently transfer from one hand to another while the revealed object is another apparently identical object (not restricted to coins). My magic effects are based on what the audience perceives, not on whose ego gets caressed. Who said (other than you) that only a single coin be used? From where comes the mandate that the Passing Hand must Palm the coin rather than Ditching or otherwise concealing it? Now you want to label every other transfer of a coin/object as a Utility Switch. Please provide your Certification as Labeler in Charge. No, you offer opinions. They may be knowledgeable opinions based on your experience, just as my opinions are based on other experiences. All of the labeling and credit games do not change the fact that I and others were doing these moves before you ever read a magic book. Read my original post here. The essential performance elements of the Shuttle by any name is that the hand and body movements are identical for the various desired results -- a "sleight" to unknown to the audience. Your view reminds me of the English tradition that "proper tea" requires that the pinky finger be held in a specific way, and the infusion seeped in a specific manner. For the rest of the world tea is a beverage to be enjoyed -- all else is secondary.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts
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Thanks Jonathan for the examples of using the Shuttle Pass in innovative ways. Just hope you don't get your hands slapped by Michael or haunted by Roth.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4674 Posts
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Well Funsway, I take back my statement that this discussion remained civil. You can disagreee with me, but your last post was a bit surprising. You quote an obscure manuscript as your source, that by your own admission is not totally legible, and you say that you have made some of your own interpretations on what you have read. This alone raises a heck of a lot of questions. You freely use the word shuttle and flying shuttle, even though these were coined by Roth and Sankey. The magic bigs of the past (Vernon, Slydini, Krause, Kaps, Jennings,etc), had never seen or USED the move before Roth published (that comes from the conversation I had with David). But you make the assumption that it must have been a common move because it is in this obscure partially legible manuscript.
Then you posted a description that was impossible to interpret. So, what did I do? I asked you to provide a copy of this manuscript, but it is not available right now. I tried to make your statement a bit clearer, but you argue that I am giving away too much stuff on an open forum (I would be stunned if a non magician stumbled upon this topic and 1. was actually interested in this mundane discussion, much less 2. be able to understand what the heck we are talking about here). I said I would keep an open mind, but want to see a copy of this or be able to reference this. Otherwise, we are just taking this at your word. One could just as easily say that they have a manuscript from 1852 from Hammerkeer Sclemmer where he was doing the Tuning Fork a century before Roth, but the manuscript is locked away and it couldn't be verified. It wasn't a hostile request, it was a valid one. And without ANY OTHER REFERENCE, that might just was well be a historic document. I would be the first to agree with you, should the shuttle pass as published by David be in that document. So would Roth, and all of coin magic. I have no problem setting history straight. But OK, then, without documentation to provide you claim the Shuttle pass as described by Roth isn't his, and you have been doing the shuttle pass for years before Roth, even though there are no other published sources from ANY of the coin magicians of that time. Well, sorry if I have a hard time believing this. Look at the magic literature AFTER 1976, and BEFORE 1976. AFTER 1976 - shuttle pass all over the *** place. Before 1976- Only your obscure 1934 manuscript that you partially interpreted on your own. I guess we will have to wait until a copy of this manuscript surfaces, or we will just be going around in circles.
S.E.M. (The Sun, the Moon, and the Earth) is a sun and moon routine unlike any other. Limited to 100 sets, here is the promo:
https://youtu.be/aFuAWCNEuOI?si=ZdDUNV8lUPWvtOcL $325 ppd USA (Shipping extra outside of USA). If interested, shoot me an email for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts
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Michael, I have moved my comments to Secret Sessions. Either the rules of the Café are followed or they are not. I suggested that you post your description on a PM. You choose to violate the posting rules instead. How is that being civil?
Now you misquote and misrepresent what I have posted. I have never said that my documentation proves that "the shuttle pass as described by Roth isn't his." I have said that the concept of a Shuttle Pass is not his to claim -- for several reasons, only one of which was a reference to to the Birch Manuscript. What is important is that when I saw the Moves described by Birch I instantly categorized them as "Shuttle Pass" because that is what I was taught back in 1958. I see various Moves in other magic venues and also see "Shuttle Pass." That is a "fact" that requires no documentation, and you have offered nothing to change my knowledge of what I know of Shuttle Moves. You implications that my word is not as trustworthy as yours is insulting and far from civil. It may serve you to be a "Doubting Thomas" in your life, but it is misplaced here. It is not a "valid" request unless you make a similar request to every other poster on the Café and always provide documentation for your opinions and claims. For me, your reference to some expensive copy of a DVD is not a "valid" reference either -- saying that the only way to verify your claims its to spend money to find out. Now there is a claim that some library has a copy of every magic manuscript in existence. Haw! I offer information for all of the readers here. It is you who are disagreeing with me -- not I with you. I value your opinions -- but they are just that. Personal attacks are out of place. Somehow, "history" is important to you. It is not a matter of "setting it straight," but of providing ALL of the facts from which a reader can extract what is valuable for them. It is not a matter of "believing" -- it is a matter of "knowing." Only you are going around in circles with your logic -- if it isn't done as Roth did it is not a Shuttle Pass because Roth said it was so. Actually, his famous Move is not a "shuttle" at all. Look at Secret Sessions.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4674 Posts
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The Library I mentioned is officially callled the Conjuring Arts Center, located in New York. It is a not for profit organization dedicated to the history of conjuring. It is used for research, and preservation of our art. It's Library houses over eleven thousand books and periodicals dating back to the 15th century in a variety of languages. Look it up with google. They have a search engine called Ask Alexander, to find stuff. Roth works there. If anyone else is going to have that pubblication, it would likely be them. But you of course have no obbligation to prove your statement. That is the beauty of the internet. You can say anything and it is there forever. I made my point. And without referencing any expensive dvds. The post with the quote from Roth's own book said it best. Other than that this discussion is just going to go around in circles. Have a great day.
S.E.M. (The Sun, the Moon, and the Earth) is a sun and moon routine unlike any other. Limited to 100 sets, here is the promo:
https://youtu.be/aFuAWCNEuOI?si=ZdDUNV8lUPWvtOcL $325 ppd USA (Shipping extra outside of USA). If interested, shoot me an email for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts
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Another wrong statement. I have no obligation to prove anything to YOU. The only point you have made is that you violate Posting rules.
This forum is a forum for open discussion of ideas related to coin magic without revealing methods. and the beauty of the Internet is that you sometimes can learn something -- if you are open to learning. Why does every one of your posts contain some personal attack? Do you really think I just make this stuff up? or are you just miffed because someone dares to challenge your perceptions? Ask Roth why he chose to call his innovation a Shuttle Pass when it is not a shuttle at all.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4674 Posts
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I am sorry you felt insulted by me, not my intent.I guess you can't have a discussion on here without ruffling feathers. But I have nothing more to add because this will go on and on, providing nothing more than entertainment for the readers but not getting anywhere. And as for why Roth called his move a shuttle pass, I won't bother David with that one. I wouldn't be able to print his response.
S.E.M. (The Sun, the Moon, and the Earth) is a sun and moon routine unlike any other. Limited to 100 sets, here is the promo:
https://youtu.be/aFuAWCNEuOI?si=ZdDUNV8lUPWvtOcL $325 ppd USA (Shipping extra outside of USA). If interested, shoot me an email for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-02-18 20:23, funsway wrote: The term as proper name, not always capitalized, was introduced in Roth's lecture and then in Kaufman's books CoinMagic and David Roth's Expert Coin Technique. In the first item explained in the lecture notes, steps two (2) and three (3) of the Winged Silver routine is the sleight description with its name capitalized and even underlined. The sentence after directs the reader to refer to those steps when they see the the term as they read forward.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts
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To complement the information exchanged in this thread, the move exists in Ponsin (pre dating Robert Houdin) but without claim for originality. Part of the confusion comes from the fact that Stanley Collins "coined" (if I dare using this verb) or invented the name "Shuttle Pass" as a replacement for the name of the "Utility Switch" but using it with four coins and not with just one coin(s). As already underlined the move with two objects existed before but wasn't restricted to coin magic and in fact probably stems from C&Bs where it was used and can still be seen in print in Ron Jamison's routine in The Sphinx Vol 31 N°1 (1932 if my memory is right) p 9 where a small ball is shuttle passed from one hand to the other.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Mb217 Inner circle 9530 Posts
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It is indeed interesting to see some real minds weigh-in on this discussion, debate even. Everyone seems to draw reference from different sources. If you notice there is very little example of anyone looking at the same work or honoring it in the same ways. That such ambiguity would exist as to the Shuttle Pass, that we find out after a simple statement beginning this string as to it just being a cool move, is something indeed. Clearly, it seems to me that the word(s) "invention/invented" have been somewhat problematic here, especially upon further examination that the "only" first door to all of this isn't the only first door at all. Also, the concepts put forth as ideas and actions clash though they seem clearly separate as to timeline. Still, interpretation is key here and then further as to how is interpreting what, why and for who. The road seems to start at different points on all this depending on who you ask and or who weighs-in, which is no clearer than someone starting a new road from old ones they know not of or don't particularly care for, for one reason or another. Ahhh, semantics, definitions, opinions and authority, etc...Sounds a bit like the great cross roads in the Yellow Brick Road in the Wizard of Oz, and then, "Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!" ...Or something like that.
So we've heard as to references, Henry Hay, Ponsin, Stanley Collins, Birch, Kaufman, Bobo, Robert Houdin, Bill Kalush(?), Jamison, John Ramsay, and maybe some others up in there as to leading up to Roth's printed contribution on the Shuttle Pass in '76. It's interesting that you can get as easily lost here on what seemed like a one lane highway where it seemed everyone was going the same way, only now not so much after certain claims and questions of legitimacy. Hmmmmm.
Also, that mostly none here mention the same references as to their understandings and feelings about it all, unless it's a similar direction they were going to begin with toward an already pre-determined destination as to what's what, I find also interesting from the very crowded ringside here. Not to mention that there's probably all sorts of side talk going on out in the hallways. Just the same, it's great to see lots of good thought here from all over the place, big, small and all.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb 
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts
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I'm getting into this most interesting discussion, a trifle late...
Regarding the historical aspects, I'm reminded of a quotation (Ican't remember WHO said "it"): "THOSE WHO AREN'T WILLING TO STUDY HISTORY, ARE CONDEMNED TO REPEAT IT." --that's a paraphrase. Almost every trick, routine, or gag in my act has been added to or improved by suggestions from other performer friends. I mentally thank them at every show. Karrell Fox, Don Lawton, Senor Mardo, Stuart Ross,C. Thomas Magrum,Roy Mayer,Roy Shrimplin,Jon Racherbaumer ET AL, have all helped. Re: PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT. Sorry, that is not TOTALLY corrct (at least in MY experience) P R O P E R PRACTICE (with the mentoring of a knowledgeable,skilled coach) can MAKE PERFECT. CREDENTIALS? Well, I saw John Ramsay perform in 1950. --PHENOMENAL!!! I met J.B. BOBO in 1951. We were close friends until he died. (we were both school show magicians.) The last time we had lunch in Texarkana, we were jackpotting and we esitmated that we had each done about 20,000 school shows. I do a D--- good MISERS DREAM! In 1950, I learned to do the Five Coin Star with both hands simultaneously. I soon after was doing the coin roll with FOUR COINS SIMULTANEOUSLY.--I taught that to Johnny Ace Palmer. I'm not a "box & tube & bag on a stick" magician. At the '64 IBM/SAM convention in NYC, I saw the "hanging coins" magician perform. He has come a long way,since then!!! In '64, I WAS NOT IMPRESSED. He came into the close up room to perform, and started by saying to members of the audience, "You can't sit there. Move over here." etc. Can you picture working a hospitality suite or similar close up situation for a corporate client,and saying something like that to the CEO of a major company?!?! I certainly couldn't!!! --And, I have worked those corporate affairs on many occasions,when I was inhabiting the Charlie Miller Suite! He has come a long way! --and, I'm happy to say that. Hey PATRICK BLOCK! I was on the national staff at the '81 and the '85 Jamborees (a "trade show" for BOYS LIFE MAGAZINE). I share with you your thoughts on the 'POOR MAN'S TARBELL'! J.B. MUSSEY, (somewhat like JEAN HUGARD, J.B. knew how to write! (if I remember correctly, he translated Ottakar Fischer's "Illustrated Magic".) I learned the DOWNS PALM from an old carnie when I was a teenager working in a side show--and Henry Hay helped me to smooth it up. I'll PM you some day--might be fun to do a bit of reminiscing about our mutual experiences in the BSA. Oh! I met Jim Swoger several times, but we never really got close. Hey brother BOYKIN! We continue to "think quite alike" (or are our minds both travelling in the same 'rut'? hee hee) You always have somethng worthwhile to say!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10959 Posts
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Dick I hope to meet you some day Marion and I travel in the same pathwasy\ thank you for your your post
vinny |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9530 Posts
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Dick, it is always so wonderful to hear a voice such as yours, it is quite unique and always rings a very different tone as to things. It is made of a variety of decades in magic and a whole host of people many have only read about, and a whole host of others that they may not of ever heard of. We are lucky to have your views here.
Glad to hear from you here in this discussion, even argument, if you will. Crazy, but even when we claimed America, it had already belonged to others long before. I'm just sayin'. And we knew that, and have re-rationalized it as ours ever since. Perhaps I digress a bit but I tend to connect such dots in life in comparisons of one thing to another, here and there. Whether it's Shuttle Passes or the sort of things dealt with in the 2008 movie, Flash of Genius, a movie if invention, deciept and even theft from the lowest to the highest levels. I'm just sayin'.
And Dick, be careful traveling the same ways as me,  as I am from no such upper crust of anything, just a humble worker in the shadows of the castle peddling my wares here and there to those that appreciate my offerings and those that don't very miuch at times. I guess I have done a few noteworthy things but that might depend upon who you speak to here, especially in such argumentative dynamics here that can render some finesses of moves by some as one thing, and then some finesses of moves by others in similar ways as something very different. Guess it all depends on whose out there making the calls and why, but I've seen bad calls made at every base by the best of umpires. Anyone else?
Anyway, lucky I happen to have thick skin (No doubt the NYC street kid in me) and I've been called worst by better throughout my life but for some reason I'm still here, still contributing something worthwhile to others in a variety of ways. So, no ribbons or fine buckles on my shoes, probably moreso there have been holes in the soles....But my armor shines a bit in places at times, and always with courage from somewhere I've continued on and here I am.
It's an honor to walk a ways with you my friend on this, a unique journey indeed.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-02-23 13:59, Mb217 wrote:...Flash of Genius, a movie if invention, deciept and even theft from the lowest to the highest levels... Some wish to clearly identify novel aspects of works, their place in our literature and relevant precedents.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts
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Valid, and balanced, John. I'm all for that and think David absolutely deserves due credit and is credible.
 Michael Feldman made a very relevant point a little while ago, too, regarding Expert Coin Magic:
Quote:
On 2013-02-18 20:17, mfeld wrote: On some occasions, though, here at the Café (and in the world at large ) -and I think this is where Marion's caution flag is raised- I'm reminded a little of my first time flying, and, returning to the ground in Canada. Having summoned enough courage to look out the window, suddenly seeing lines where, moments before, there were none visible- everything all divvied up- and almost hearing a shouting- "This is mine, that's yours, see that line? Don't cross it! Mine's bigger. I've got more than you. Our lines are straight. These pieces are separated! I don't care what the birds think... what do they know?" And also, landing several years later in Vegas, on descent flying by a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge monolithic red "rock" and then realizing just how phenomenally large it was when the new "tallest" ahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaahahaha 
hotel in Vegas, was pointed out, looking like a pitiful piece of lego, wow. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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That photo of the earth from orbit and the Shelly Poem 'Ozymandias' also come to mind on the "dust/vanity" matter, and as a reminder of just how small, frail and precious human beings (and their feelings) are in the world.
IMHO the term "shuttle pass" in our relatively recent literature, from CoinMagic to present day, is pretty clearly in reference to the Roth item.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Posted: Feb 19, 2013 01:17 am 
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