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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1746 Posts 
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How about Be Honest.. as a prelude to DDLT? If you do the ending to Be Honest... when you take the other cards from your pocket, then you already have the four cards out and ready. I dunno, maybe it's too much: it doesn;t satisfy the Ortiz rule of toughening the conditions each time. I wouldn't do this as the effects are too similar. Better to do one or the other I think. |
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Cain Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 1561 Posts
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Thanks Marty, I look forward to reading future entries on your blog.
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On 2013-02-15 05:22, ross welford wrote: Slick handling, Cain! BUT - and I get the impression that this thread is populated by intelligent enthusiasts who are also adults capable of handling polite criticism - it was too fast for me. Especially the first phase, I had NO idea what was going on! Sleights indetectable, but you lost me, I'm afraid.[/quote] Ross, I agree it's a bit fast. At one point I even need check to see where the AoS is because I have no idea! The purpose was more show the phases, BUT I don't believe in being too shy about quickness in the first phase, as that plays to spectators' intuitions: the hand is quicker than the eye. I think we're also looking at it from the perspective of magicians: it's *uncomfortable* to follow cards moving that quickly; it requires effort. However, I think someone *could* follow a card through movements at that the pace, and *will* if engaged. The switch of course comes from the Elmsley count, but someone who's paying attention will likely attribute their mistake to the rapid movements, which is the same mistake people make with the con game three card monte. What makes a trick magical is when it can't be done any slower. Therefore, the second phase is fairer because it's done at a more watchable speed, and the cards are shown before they're laid down. I think this is key to heightening the surprise. For the first phase, after the Elmsley, I used to show the AoS "on top", but now I don't bother.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."
Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!" |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9616 Posts
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On 2013-02-15 12:05, Cain wrote: I agree with both of you guys here, that while the sleights are smoothly done, it's done much to fast to be considered magical. Comes across more like the 3 Card Monte ruse out on the NYC streets.  Again, it's good but I would believe that a spec would be a lot more confused than amazed behind all the handling involved. An as the old addage goes, "Confusion is not magic.". Lots of good technique in there but I think the magic of it was lost early on. I think the simpler you make these switches happen, the better, the more magical they are perceived. Even the presentation where the card is pushed into the specs hand and taken out top and bottom before you reveal the switch, specs become a bit unsure what you want them solidly believe as to what card they are holding. I think once you start playing this effect that way, you begin to move it away from just being magical.probably why the Daley Trick has stood the test time playing the way it does. It's why I really like the way Bill Malone presents the trick. It is done deliberately and the specs are made to believe in the cards they hold without a doubt and it delivers as magical very simply played as "easy does it." Just my view on it. And of course if you want it to just be as magically impossible as possible, then Double Back would do that easy enough.
And Marty, not sure about that either but I do believe the specs don't care either which way - in the hand or on the table. Actually, there are different ways it appears in the hands, either having the cards pinched between the fingers or huts lying on the open palms. I think both ways make the effect play very different. Malone's way seems more like the Daley Trick, IMHO. I actually never do the Daley Trick on the table but that's just me.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb 
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1746 Posts
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And Marty, not sure about that either but I do believe the specs don't care either which way - in the hand or on the table. I agree that they don't care, but it does alter they way the effect is perceived. Some magicians will argue that, because the magic happens in their hands, the effect is stronger. However, I think it makes a direct method even more direct, which is dangerous when performing for logical thinkers. I'm not totally against performing the transposition "in the hands", but the handling must break the straight line to the method. Bill Malone does this with a well timed joke. John Bannon does it with a very clever mixing procedure (of sorts). And Daryl does it by asking a "trick question". I should also point out that, according to the poll on my blog, I'm in the minority here: http://poll.fm/3qsp4 Marty |
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Cain Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 1561 Posts
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On 2013-02-15 12:25, Mb217 wrote: Different strokes for different folks, but I think you're taking that aphorism too literally. It's OK for people to not know which card is the spades and which one is the clubs because the *effect* is clear: it's neither. The first phase sets up, or implies, the rules of the game: the ace of spades is one of the two cards on the box/in play. On a separate note, take two cards and mix them between your hands as quickly as you can: It doesn't matter how fast you do this, the eye can follow if its attention is undivided, especially with an over-head, top-down view of the cards. If you're looking more at the edges, and the angle in the video is not ideal, then yes, it will be more difficult (assuming you can't see the faces!). It might seem *plausible* the monte operators win with speed, but we know they win with deception. Admittedly, I'll perform this version of DLLT for a group, ask someone which is the spades, and she'll say she has "no idea," but others will weigh in, often with strong, conflicting opinions. We know at least one side must be right (which, again, sets up the second phase when the aces are shown as red). If NOBODY has any idea, and I'd bet that has happened, then it simply tells me to go slower for the second phase, which always plays well.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."
Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!" |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9616 Posts
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Cain, didn't mean to be harsh here, and I do understand the way you do the effect, but yes I do think its more confusing than magical. In fact, I think your explanation here is way more than the Daley trick calls for and in that way, sorta illustrates the excessive handling that leads to more confusion than magic. Again, what you do is nicely done though.
As to the little saying I mentioned, I take it for what it simply states, as per Dai Vernon, nothing more. I truly think he was right and I continue to recognize that anytime I see it and then feel it as such. Still, you're right too, as to the old aphorism you use here, "different strokes..." . Good talk.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1746 Posts
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Remember that the original handling seems to suggest performing the trick like Three Card Monte. OK, it doesn't do this implicitly, but I think this is a logical evolution of the trick. Consequently, a fast mixing sequence is suitable in this situation; it makes the game more challenging. The effect will only be confusing if your spectator is not paying close attention, or is unaware of the relative location of the Aces. When I perform the trick, I'm not trying to present it as magic, I'm going for a demonstration of extreme skill.
Dr. Daley died 59 years ago on this very day, I've added a short post to my blog to commemorate the great man: Blame Vernon! Marty |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9616 Posts
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Thanks Marty, I actually did know the story of Doc Daley and could almost remember it as you stated, on this actual day of his death, 2/17. It's a great story, except the death part, though interestingly that's what helps to have made this simple enough card trick so lasting and memorable.
I really like what famed magician, Michael Ammar said as to the trick in passing, "... it’s really cool to think the beautiful simplicity of the plot and handling of this effect is going to keep his name alive forever in the history of magic!..." This is, as I have alluded to here, the real charm of the effect IMHO. Other ways of presenting it are fine but the simpler the better for the spec, and to bring about the true magic of it all. And Ol' Vernon was quite the interesting guy himself. Perhaps he will be your next muse on your blog. He was quite a character beyond just being a most expert magician as well.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1746 Posts
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And Ol' Vernon was quite the interesting guy himself. Perhaps he will be your next muse on your blog. He was quite a character beyond just being a most expert magician as well. There's most definitely going to be a few posts in the future about Vernon. However, I'm not going to do this until I've finished reading The Vernon Touch, so don't hold your breath! Marty |
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arizona New user 87 Posts
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I don't like over complicating tricks I seen work the first time around and has worked for me the first time around like with DDLT using the standard patter which for me is "this trick uses 4 aces all you have to do is keep track of one of them, now where's the AS at?" bit. Of course you have to figure out the timing of your patter and the sleights that work best for you. Sometimes when they guess the change taking place, I'll say "I haven't done the trick yet, I havent introduce the kings yet but if that's how you want it you got it" and show my cards. And very rarely when they turn the cards over I'll just tell them that's the fastest trick I know and take my cards from them.
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts
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On 2013-02-11 16:57, R.E. Byrnes wrote: Could you expand and/or explain how you came to that conclusion? |
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Ggrognon New user 16 Posts
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The blog is great and I like the way you think about magic.
For a (serious?) beginner, this blog is a great tool. |
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Zombie Magic Inner circle I went out for a beer and now have 8733 Posts
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Martyjacobs, VERY fun project! Thanks for sharing it.
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1746 Posts
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I'm glad you're enjoying the blog. Jon Allen has been kind enough to agree to be a guest author, and will be posting his thoughts on Dr. Daley's Trick at some point. So lots of interesting stuff to look forward too!
Marty |
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1746 Posts
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I'm resurrecting this thread because I've updated the blog posts about Dr. Daley's Last Trick and added them as a single "long read" to my new blog:
Daley Dilemma: How Do We Fix the Four We......t Trick? This will be the first of several articles on this particular magical plot. If you have any thoughts on the article, please comment here or on the blog. Marty |
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Kaliix Inner circle Connecticut 2050 Posts
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My presentation of Daley's Last Trick follows Twisting the Aces as I learned both off ETMCM V2. "Since we have the Aces out, do you wanna see one more? Yeah, who wants to help? You, okay hold your hand like this. You are the guardian of the cards. Are you up to the task? Good! Okay, if you notice, the top card here is the Ace of Clubs." Show the AC on top of the pack, turn it over, and deal it on their palm. Immediately say, "Now put your other hand on top. Guard the card and make sure nothing goes in or out. You are the guardian of the cards! Now, the bottom card I believe is the other black Ace, the Ace of Spades." Deal the AS from the bottom, show it on top, then mime and do as you say the following, "I'm not going to put the Ace of Spades here (on top), I going to put it here (on the bottom). Lift your hand for just a sec." The spectator should be in the way and should have to move their hand briefly so you can actually push the "AS" under the "AC". "Now put your other hand back down and hold them right there." Since you slide the second card under the first, there is some friction on the palm. This can be a memory aid later as to what happened.
"Now if I ask you, where is the Ace of Spades, is it on the top or on the bottom?" I'm not amazed anymore how often this clarification is needed as even though the directions were clear, people still are sometimes not sure where the AS is. If they remember INCORRECTLY remind them what happened, remember I said I'm not going to put it here, I'm going to put it here. After agreement that the AS has been put on the bottom, I now say, "Would you be impressed if I could make the Ace of Spades jump from the bottom to the top of your pack?" No matter the response, the follow-up is "Well... would you be MORE impressed if I made the Ace of Spades jump and go to the top of my pack?" I try to act like the cards in my hand are unimportant until this moment when they are brought into view and the AS is turned over in your hand. This action is followed by a dramatic pause then, "What if I got them both?" Now use the left hand to flip over the AC and show them both face up. I usually will just bask in the afterglow at that point until they check the cards in their hands. Sometimes I have to tell the spectator to look at the cards they're holding just because they are so dumbfounded by the fact that I'm holding both black Aces. Most times though they turn their cards over and react... I think this approach elevates the effect and avoids the too-direct dilemma by implying the trick is a jump in their hand and then surprising them with a jump to yours. The motivation issue is solved by having this follow Twisting the Aces. Guarding the cards, plus the feint of putting the cards NOT on the top but ON the bottom followed by the build-up of, in your hands, no in my hands, wait what? means the trick is not easily missed. I also think that there is a limit to how long a simple and direct effect like this can be extended. The routine I've outlined above I feel hits the sweet spot in terms of routine length. IMHO, YMMV...
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin |
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1746 Posts
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Thanks for sharing your approach to the plot, Jason. I like the "guardian of the cards" line. I can see how this could be made even sillier by saying it in an over-the-top wizard voice (think Gandalf, "You shall not pass!").
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I'm not amazed anymore how often this clarification is needed as even though the directions were clear, people still are sometimes not sure where the AS is. If they remember INCORRECTLY remind them what happened, remember I said I'm not going to put it here, I'm going to put it here. Yes, I've also found this to be an issue when performing Daryl's "The Trick Question". I usually use the red Aces instead and give them the memory cue "rock bottom", so they can remember which card is where. Gregory Wilson's "Weighted Aces" approach also helps with this matter. Marty |
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1746 Posts
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Here's a quick update on this project. I've decided to split Developing Daley into five volumes so it's economically viable for me to print physical copies of each book and release them digitally. You can read the full details behind this decision in Ruseletter Monthly Update #20.
Each volume will include twelve variations of Dr. Daley's Last Trick and three theoretical essays. Developing Daley: Volume 1 will also include ten basic handlings of the plot. This volume will feature a variation of Daryl's handling called "The Tricker Question" and one called "Obese Aces" based on Gregory Wilson's "Weighted Aces". These variations have an additional phase, which helps with the confusion mentioned above. I will also continue releasing some of the effects on my blog via the Ruseletter. You can read all the articles related to Dr. Daley's Last Trick by using the two links below: All DDLT Blog Posts All DDLT Ruseletter Articles Marty |
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Posted: Feb 15, 2013 11:22 am 
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