On 2013-02-20 21:32, mastermindreader wrote:

Here's another interesting thing to think about. Imagine doing tarot readings in 17th Century Salem Village.

On 2013-02-20 20:56, daffydoug wrote:
I'm probably wrong then, but I was assuming that before the US playing card company, and our modern manufacturing techniques, playing cards were inferior to today's, and with no quality control, they were irregular at best.,

I hadn't considered that until a couple posts back.

On 2013-02-21 01:58, Payne wrote:

Quote:

On 2013-02-20 21:32, mastermindreader wrote:

Here's another interesting thing to think about. Imagine doing tarot readings in 17th Century Salem Village.

Well since the Salem Trials were in the Seventeenth Century and they didn't start using the Tarot for divination until the Eighteenth Century. It is highly unlikely that such a scenario took place.

On 2013-02-21 11:16, mastermindreader wrote:

Picky picky. But card divination goes back before that and Tarot variants did exist at the time, although they were primarily used for games.

Beyond that, though, it was a joke!

Dr. Flamstead’s and Mr. Patridge’s New Fortune-Book containing . . . Their new-invented method of knowing one’s fortune by a pack of cards appears to be the oldest book with instructions on fortune-telling-with-cards in the English language. The first edition seems to be from 1729—well before Etteilla wrote his 1770 book on “cartonomancie” and contains a “lot” style method of divination in which the card chosen leads to a verse based on your choice from a list of pre-set questions. However we know from the 1730 play Jack the Gyant-Killer that multi-card spreads with meanings for each card were already current in England.

Two 17th century works of art attest to the use of playing cards in witchcraft. “Depart pour le Sabat” by David Teniers the Younger (1610-1690) shows playing cards as part of a magical circle (see picture at top and to the right.)

On 2013-02-21 14:06, Woland wrote:
Which reminds me that Tarot decks are used in playing card games in Europe. Sometimes called "Tarock," I think.

On 2013-02-20 20:33, mastermindreader wrote:

Quote:

On 2013-02-20 18:26, daffydoug wrote:
Ed,

Ya' know, you're right! It slipped my mind, but they didn't have Bikes back then or Hoyle or any of our modern cards. Let's say I had a time machine and went back in time and had my Bikes with me. They would be foreign to those guys. D'oh! I might get lynched just for bringing them out. Scratch that plan. With the poor quality of the cards of the day, who knows if you could even smoothly execute an Elmsley.

Again, you're making an assumption. Some of the cards back then were actually of VERY high quality and some were comparatively expensive.

On 2013-02-21 12:48, Woland wrote:
If you are interested in Tarot history, there is an amusing and instructive blog by Michael Hurst called "pre-gebelin" at blogspot. He is very opinionated and often uses vulgar expressions, but his grasp of the documented history is I think sound, and based generally on Professor Michael Dummett's work.

On 2013-02-21 12:26, mastermindreader wrote:
Sorry, Payne, I don't know of any primary sources. But I have round a reference to cartomancy "meanings" published in a book dating as early as 1720. Unless the authors invented cartomancy themselves, which is unlikely, it would seem that they were writing of something that was already known at the time.

Quote:

Dr. Flamstead’s and Mr. Patridge’s New Fortune-Book containing . . . Their new-invented method of knowing one’s fortune by a pack of cards appears to be the oldest book with instructions on fortune-telling-with-cards in the English language. The first edition seems to be from 1729—well before Etteilla wrote his 1770 book on “cartonomancie” and contains a “lot” style method of divination in which the card chosen leads to a verse based on your choice from a list of pre-set questions. However we know from the 1730 play Jack the Gyant-Killer that multi-card spreads with meanings for each card were already current in England.

http://marygreer.wordpress.com/2010/01/1......english/

It might be interesting to research the 1730 play referred to in the above quote.

And, from the same source:

Quote:

Two 17th century works of art attest to the use of playing cards in witchcraft. “Depart pour le Sabat” by David Teniers the Younger (1610-1690) shows playing cards as part of a magical circle (see picture at top and to the right.)

http://marygreer.wordpress.com/category/....../page/2/

Good thoughts,

Bob

On 2013-02-22 08:47, magicjack1977 wrote:
Erdnase wrote Expert at the Card Table during an era where the aging verneer of the old west was still hanging over eastern towns like St. Louis, Virginia City, Savannah, and Branson, among others.