|
|
majil New user 28 Posts |
When I am learning a sleight, I would pick up more than one source so I can get more information. However, I often find those multiple resources disagree on some points. Here are some examples.
1) About the second deal. In eThe Complete Walton vol.1,f it says strike second is better than the push off second for general conjuring applications. In eThe Expert Card Technique,f it states that strike second is good for gambling demo, but push off is superior. 2) About the right hand movement of the classic pass. It is ok for the right fingers to pull up on the lower half. eThe Card Classic of Ken Krenzelf & eComplete Works of Derek Dinglef The right hand must not pull up the lower half. eThe Expert at the Card Tableff & grevelation by Dai Vernonh My question is, how do you guys deal with this kind of situation? I cannot decide which source to trust since those books I listed above are all written by knowledgeable people. |
Andy Young Special user Jersey Shore, PA 813 Posts |
You have to just try them out and see which one fits you like a glove. You may have a natural knack for one over the other.
|
failed_drummer Veteran user 314 Posts |
Use whichever method works for you.
There's always dissonance between magicians and gamblers about second deals and other gambling sleights, since the end goal is different. Gamblers focus on natural movements and need to stick to accepted methods of dealing, etc., whereas magicians have a lot more leeway in terms of misdirection and movements. I'm pretty sure Jason England has written an article on this somewhere, as have many others, I expect. As for the pass, from what I understand (and I'm in no way an expert), the important thing is the right hand FINGERS don't move; the hand can move up and down a bit, particularly if you a hiding it a squaring the cards. In Expert at the Card Table, it suggests using the left thumb to lever the cards up, rather than pulling up with the fingers and thumb of the right hand, since the temptation is to just use one finger. The bending of the finger is pretty obvious. The important thing is that you play around and find a way that works for you. It helps to look at multiple sources to see different approaches, but not all of them will suit you, and there's no single right way to do sleights. |
Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-02-23 07:56, majil wrote: Well, Andy and Failed_Drummer really answered the question and very well too! That said, there is certainly nothing wrong with researching various resources; it shows that you are serious about magic. Do what works for you but definitely learn from a recognized source. Check out the long YouTube thread started by Steven Youell which really goes into great detail about the importance of this. I do the Elmsley count from Biddle position. I hadn't realized that Gary Ouellet had been doijng it for years with his Paradise Grip as he called in his superb book Close-Up Illusions. Most magiciansd I know do the count from mechanic's grip. There is nothing at all wrong with that. The reason however that the I do the count ala Ouellet (wow I am becoming French!) is: 1. I want all of my countsd to look as similar as possible. I grew up around a LOT of poker players and I noticed that they would idly count the cards in their hand from a grip similar to a Biddle so, I adopted something I saw as a kid and then saw it in Ouellet's book. The Hamman forinstance is done with a Biddle grip and it makes no sense to me to use a Biddle for one count and mechanic's for another. But that's just me and what works for me - echoing Andy and Failed_Drummer here. 2. The Jordan Count - for ME was always a PITA to do from mechanic's grip but it is SO nice from the Biddle grip. Some may say I was/am being lazy. Perhaps, but, I found what works for me and it's deceptive and natural. As to the Second Deal, man oh man what a hot topic that remains! I have heard some say that the brief should be almost as small as a human hair while others claim that the small brief is all macho BS. Since I wear boxers I don't get the debate at all. (UGHH I know, that was bad). I would say that either side is valid IF each technique works and works well. I have seen some of the best magicians in the world do a very conspicuous necktie and slay audiences. I have also been 1 millimeter away from Simon Lovell's hands (UGHHH that sounded bad too) and cannot detect his second at all! So, who is right? Nobody and everybody. Namaste, Vlad |
MagicJuggler Inner circle Anchorage, AK 1161 Posts |
I reccomend with moves like these that you research multiple sources and work out which method works for you. Sometimes you'll find that a combination of techniques works better than just one approach. For example, I've worked on achieving a deceptive silent strike second deal for years and I've come up with what I believe to be an answer (I can even give the impression of a slow deal and remain deceptive without necktieing the deck) But my answer didn't come from just one source, it came from about five or six different books, sometimes just a paragraph or a sentance that made something click in my head. One such phrase that improved my deal came from a small side note in Darwin Ortiz's Annotated Erdnase, which I read both right and wrong at the same time and developed a slight variation on the take that made it very deceptive (and I expose at least 1/8" of the second card when I push over the top) And I'm not fooling myself, I've had people stand over my shoulder and watch my deal and they still couldn't see the take.
But it's that kind of research that gets you the kind of technique you're looking for. There's a lot of opinions on the perfect way of doing a classic pass, but read from several different sources and play with the different variations before you get locked into one method. You might find some unique personal twist that comes from a combination of sources that fits you like a glove. It's like that with a lot of moves, the more you know the better decision you can make. But it's those moves that take a long time to perfect like the second deal, the pass, the bottom deal (I mean perfect, not just learn) and the DL that you really want to study a variety of sources before you settle on one single method. Of course with some moves it pays to know several versions so you can use the best version for the occasion. So in other words, study a lot, practice a lot and think about what you're doing so you learn what you feel is the best way to do a move. Everyone has their own opinions, but that's because some things work better for some people and so they feel that that's the superior version. fact of the matter is, there are a lot of different variations of a move that are very deceptive so long as your technique is excellent. It's like which style of martial art is better, there will be a lot of opinions but if you are a master in one you will be far better off than a dabbler in many different styles.
Matthew Olsen
I heard from a friend that anecdotal evidence is actually quite reliable. |
Bandaloop Regular user Dodging attacks for the past 195 Posts |
I'm going to give my opinion of the Second Deal based only on the assumption that we're talking about magicians and magic and audiences watching magic. Using a second deal while actually cheating in a game has a different set of thought processes that go along with it.
And the opinion is: it just depends on your preference. As long as it is deceptive, do what works best for you and what works best within the effect. Francis Carlyle had a MASSIVE brief when doing a strike second, but because of his rythym it sailed right by people. Jason England and Darwin Ortiz might as well not even talk about briefs -- they barely even move the top card. Richard Turner prefers push-off seconds, so does Simon Lovell (Vlad -- I have spent many, many a night with Simon and his stud second is a thing of beauty). Personally, as if anyone cares, I use a push-off unless for some reason I need to do rapid-fire seconds (rare, but there are a couple effects that I'll do every now and then that require it), then I'll use a strike. Ultimately, though, you need to work with both and figure out for yourself what you like and what you don't. |
AAAL Regular user Venezuela 112 Posts |
I think it pretty much depends on you and your style, your body language and the kind of tricks (or demosntrations) you do. in my case I try almost every single sleight I read and then I decide if it fits me and my style.
Also remember that most descriptions in book are subjected to the author's point of view, so try to look past those opinions and try the sleights for yourself, ask your friends how they look and just pick the one that fits you the most, I've seen performers do sleights that I think are outdated or very bad in a way that are imperceptible so it's a matter of style and how confortable you are when performing the sleight. Think about a top change for example, there are many ways of doing a top change, however there are even more ways of doing it wrong, think about it. |
Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-02-24 10:26, Bandaloop wrote: I completely agree with you Bandaloop and I think my comment on Simon's work was a bit vague. Yes his seconds - studs and push offs are superb! My second works for magic but the guys in The Gambling Spot would howl with derisive laughter at my seconds. (I'm used to that: many howl with derisive laughter at my posts ) Namaste, Vlad |
majil New user 28 Posts |
Thank you everyone. I will continue my research and experiment with your advices in my mind.
|
Steff New user 35 Posts |
Quote:
My question is, how do you guys deal with this kind of situation? I deal with this kind of situation by... getting help on forums (these forums being the café and a french-speaking magic forum). If I have a "natural nack" for either, I obviously go for it. The problem is when I have to spend hours just to get something done. In that case, you cannot work both and then choose the best option. So, I ask people around me... which means on the café many many other magicians, including pros. |
Atom3339 Inner circle Spokane, WA 3242 Posts |
Actually, Steff, card sleights DO take hours to learn. Many hours. More hours, IMO, than most people are willing to put in. I believe that's why the Professor stated "you better enjoy practicing"---my paraphrase. I liken it to practicing the piano to the point of being a professional classical pianist; which I am, BTW.
TH
Occupy Your Dream |
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » When studying a move... (0 Likes) |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.04 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |