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Paul Rathbun
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Matt,

I agree with everything you have said above.

I guess my thinking was generally a magician is trying to entertain and get paid for it. Brian and pitchmen are in the business of getting paid to sell secrets. Obviously a pitchman is selling to an individual and Brian is being paid to show the masses. All I am saying is in my mind they are similar.

On a side, I like Brian and his books and show Scam School. I don't think he is a bad guy, I just think in this circumstance he used bad judgement and went too far.
Matt Adams
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Quote:
On 2013-03-07 12:30, Paul Rathbun wrote:
Matt,

I agree with everything you have said above.

I guess my thinking was generally a magician is trying to entertain and get paid for it. Brian and pitchmen are in the business of getting paid to sell secrets. Obviously a pitchman is selling to an individual and Brian is being paid to show the masses. All I am saying is in my mind they are similar.

On a side, I like Brian and his books and show Scam School. I don't think he is a bad guy, I just think in this circumstance he used bad judgement and went too far.


Yeah, they are related. However, I see a pitchman more as "getting someone started in magic." We all start somewhere and BUYING magic is the correct way to go. A pitchman is selling them a secret AND the means to do the trick. Brian just gave away a secret and NO MEANS to do the trick. So it's just exposure for exposure's sake. He may have benefited from it monetarily, but again, it wasn't HIS idea to share. He's basically stolen something from the magic community and profited by it.

It would have been slightly different in my mind if the network had funded 50,000 ID purchases and given them out to 50,000 viewers so that they could then do the trick. Yep...it's still grossly overused and would essentially kill the trick, BUT at least they'd be learning that magic isn't just knowing the secret...but in going out and being able to share it with others. That could HELP magic, I'd think. It'd kill the ID since 50K people would be doing it...but it could whet the appetite of some new young performers who'd go out and USE the deck they were given from the network.

But obviously this is pie in the sky as the network is only concerned with ratings and others are only concerned with profiting at the expense of our community.
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Andrew Zuber
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Personally I find the guy to be one of the most obnoxious things on the Internet. I don't care what he's rambling on about - I watched about 30 seconds of a video and shut the thing off, not because of the material but because of the fool presenting it.
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Jason Simonds
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On 2013-03-07 00:32, Paul Rathbun wrote:
I do see it as harmful, as I also see people selling IT, TTs, etc. to tourists in Vegas harmful.


Meh. It was one of these guys in New Orleans that re-kindled my love for magic.
Matt Adams
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On 2013-03-07 15:31, Jason Simonds wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-03-07 00:32, Paul Rathbun wrote:
I do see it as harmful, as I also see people selling IT, TTs, etc. to tourists in Vegas harmful.


Meh. It was one of these guys in New Orleans that re-kindled my love for magic.


Exactly. I don't think it's harmful to sell those tricks either. People have to start somewhere and all these sorts of tricks are "common" material for magicians. There's a big difference between all the types of magic out there - regarding exclusivity.
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Paul Rathbun
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Imagine you just finished performing the Floating Rose by Kevin James. Maybe it is the finale in your show. A real showpiece if you will. After the show a person from the audience approaches you and starts blabbing on about how he was in vegas last month and picked up the whirling card. "Yeah, all it uses is IT just like your trick." He says this loud enough so lots of other people overhear.

You are table hopping and decide to use the ID because it is so strong. Or maybe you use it as an emergency out like I have heard of people doing. You are mid-way through the ID when someone says oh yeah that is the ID. It is just double sided with ro**hing spray on it. There is an awkward moment as everyone looks to see how you are going to react.

Harmless, I think not. Anyone of us would be annoyed at that situation.

But hey, apparently I am not going to convince you.
Matt Adams
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Quote:
On 2013-03-07 16:53, Paul Rathbun wrote:
Imagine you just finished performing the Floating Rose by Kevin James. Maybe it is the finale in your show. A real showpiece if you will. After the show a person from the audience approaches you and starts blabbing on about how he was in vegas last month and picked up the whirling card. "Yeah, all it uses is IT just like your trick." He says this loud enough so lots of other people overhear.

You are table hopping and decide to use the ID because it is so strong. Or maybe you use it as an emergency out like I have heard of people doing. You are mid-way through the ID when someone says oh yeah that is the ID. It is just double sided with ro**hing spray on it. There is an awkward moment as everyone looks to see how you are going to react.

Harmless, I think not. Anyone of us would be annoyed at that situation.

But hey, apparently I am not going to convince you.


This happens to you? Honestly I don't have this happen hardly EVER and I perform for really big crowds. Maybe people are more polite around my area, I dunno. Occasionally I might have a child start to say something like that and I just remark kindly, "Ooooh, don't tell any secrets! I won't sell ANYthing to people who can't keep a good secret. That's the fun part of magic, after all!"

It works 99% of the time (I'd say 100...but there's likely SOMEONE out there that will be malicious just as soon as I claim 100...lol).

I honestly think it's about your presentation. If you present magic as a puzzle, then people want to figure out the puzzle. It's part of our nature. But if you GIVE them an out (regardless of what that out may be), then they aren't so concerned with spouting off everything they know.

My "out" is several things that I say at the beginning of the show. One of the strongest, I believe, is something like this:

"Some people present magic as a puzzle - something to figure out. When people can't figure out the puzzle that makes them feel dumb. Well, I think that's just silly because magic is supposed to be enjoyed! It's only fun if it's a secret. Just because you don't understand a trick doesn't mean you are dumb! I get to perform for brilliant people every single day and I get to fool them every day too! I know they are much smarter than I am, but I'm so grateful that they are kind enough to allow me to fool them because it let's me keep my job. So if I'm able to fool you tonight...THANK YOU!"

There's so much good psychology in this statement - from letting them know it's ok to be fooled, to giving them good feelings IF they are fooled, to showing them they are likely smarter than I am, to making them feel special for keeping me employed. Just a lot of good statements for people to grab onto and I never get hecklers or people saying things like "Oooh...I know how you did that."

I really don't think people TRY to be jerks about it. They just feel really bad about being fooled and they just HAVE to guess (whether they are right or not) about how you do stuff. And if your routine is REALLY good, then even if they know the secret they likely won't say anything.

That makes me reconsider though...I rarely do "mainstream" magic like ID's. If I was doing an ID, I would paint the routine to be something else entirely. You gotta remember, these people that see exposure (or own a deck) are only considering their ONE routine that they know. If you change the routine, you can completely fool them with the same sort of deck they own.
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Paul Rathbun
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Actually no, I have never had either situation happen. Just making up a possible scenario of how pitch magic could be harmful. I am starting to see the light that it possibly does more good (inspiring newbies) than harm.

I like your opening statements by the way. Very well thought out.
Matt Adams
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Quote:
On 2013-03-07 18:17, Paul Rathbun wrote:
Actually no, I have never had either situation happen. Just making up a possible scenario of how pitch magic could be harmful. I am starting to see the light that it possibly does more good (inspiring newbies) than harm.

I like your opening statements by the way. Very well thought out.


Thanks bro!

Anytime you reveal a secret, you've created a confidant. However, 50,000 confidants is not a good idea. Smile I think the point is that we ALL had to learn somehow...so SOMEBODY revealed a secret to us. Who was it? Magic shop? Are they exposers? Nah. Pitchmen? Nah. Masked Magician? YES! lol.

Again, my main litmus test on exposure is this:

If they are revealing a trick without it costing the viewer something in return and without the likelihood that the viewer will ever go out and perform the trick, then it's wrongful exposure.

In Brushwood's case, he's showing magic without it costing the viewers anything. Furthermore, it's unlikely that the viewers will ever go out and perform the trick. It's just wrong...and MORESO since he didn't invent the trick! Smile

But hey, some of the top guys (e.g. Penn/Teller) have revealed magic for "entertainment." I personally just have a lot more respect for guys who do it right and keep secrets. Heck, it's what we are all about anyway.

I teach a magic class. My students PAY for the class, but I won't teach them things that they will never use. For instance, my current class (Of just 2 people...lol. Smallest class ever!) are only interested in closeup magic. Therefore there is no point for me to teach them a sawing in half stage effect when they will never use it. I strongly believe in "need to know" and they have ZERO need to know. Even if they are paying me, it's just wrongful exposure in my mind. HOWEVER, if they decided they wanted to branch out and start doing stage magic, we could certainly work up to that sort of thing because then they'd be paying AND have the ability to perform the effect.

I don't know that this "rule" is defined anywhere, but I think it makes the most sense. So again
1) It should cost the "learner" something
2) They need to have the means to go perform the effect once they learn its secret

Otherwise there's just no need to expose the effect.
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Stucky
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Before I comment I want to catch up a bit.

Quote:
Theoretically, if you pay for it you are not going to give up the secret.


You obviously don't know any drunk fratboy impulse buyers.

Quote:
Lets stop posting about this idiot Brushwood & start praying he sets himself alight with his fire eating.


And I hope you get cancer... AND DIE! (That doesn't feel good does it? Think before you drink.)

Quote:
Personally I find the guy to be one of the most obnoxious things on the Internet.


You don't hang out on the internet much do you?

I know this may sound like a crazy idea but hey why not try doing ID in some kind of fashion that ISN'T stock ID presentation? They only know what they see. Change the wrapping they won't know the contents. Steve Bedwell has a brilliant version. Remove the "invisible" part everyone knows and does and make it something more interesting. This way when you encounter the one person who might have seen this and committed it to memory they will be fooled!

Don't believe me? How many of you have ever heard this: "I know how you make that piece of cloth vanish but where does that lit cigarette go?"
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Matt Adams
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Quote:
On 2013-03-07 18:51, Stucky wrote:
Before I comment I want to catch up a bit.

Quote:
Theoretically, if you pay for it you are not going to give up the secret.


You obviously don't know any drunk fratboy impulse buyers.

Quote:
Lets stop posting about this idiot Brushwood & start praying he sets himself alight with his fire eating.


And I hope you get cancer... AND DIE! (That doesn't feel good does it? Think before you drink.)

Quote:
Personally I find the guy to be one of the most obnoxious things on the Internet.


You don't hang out on the internet much do you?

I know this may sound like a crazy idea but hey why not try doing ID in some kind of fashion that ISN'T stock ID presentation? They only know what they see. Change the wrapping they won't know the contents. Steve Bedwell has a brilliant version. Remove the "invisible" part everyone knows and does and make it something more interesting. This way when you encounter the one person who might have seen this and committed it to memory they will be fooled!

Don't believe me? How many of you have ever heard this: "I know how you make that piece of cloth vanish but where does that lit cigarette go?"


We are definitely in agreement there. You just happen to be funnier than I at giving your opinion. Smile
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Quote:
On 2013-03-07 18:51, Stucky wrote:
Before I comment I want to catch up a bit.

Quote:
Theoretically, if you pay for it you are not going to give up the secret.


You obviously don't know any drunk fratboy impulse buyers.

Quote:
Lets stop posting about this idiot Brushwood & start praying he sets himself alight with his fire eating.


And I hope you get cancer... AND DIE! (That doesn't feel good does it? Think before you drink.)

Quote:
Personally I find the guy to be one of the most obnoxious things on the Internet.


You don't hang out on the internet much do you?

I know this may sound like a crazy idea but hey why not try doing ID in some kind of fashion that ISN'T stock ID presentation? They only know what they see. Change the wrapping they won't know the contents. Steve Bedwell has a brilliant version. Remove the "invisible" part everyone knows and does and make it something more interesting. This way when you encounter the one person who might have seen this and committed it to memory they will be fooled!

Don't believe me? How many of you have ever heard this: "I know how you make that piece of cloth vanish but where does that lit cigarette go?"


Stucky makes some excellent points here - especially about changing up the presentations.

ID has many (many) possibiliies - you can use it with a MD too for a double fry.

But I'm still no fan of BB - even though he and I share the same initials!
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writeall
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Brushwood has an effect out he's selling, a book test. Any idea when it will be exposed on Youtube?

Sweet, sweet irony.
saysold1
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Ya I already said the same on the other thread.

I suggested that copycat James L Clark should do the honors - with proper crediting.
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Andrew Zuber
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I'm gonna stick by my original post. One of the most obnoxious things on the Internet.
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BatsMagic
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Quote:
On 2013-03-07 18:51, Stucky wrote:

Quote:
Theoretically, if you pay for it you are not going to give up the secret.


You obviously don't know any drunk fratboy impulse buyers.



Well, that's why I said "theoretically".

And no, I don't know any drunk frat boys. I'm way too old for that!
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Quote:
On 2013-03-06 20:54, Ray Haining wrote:
What's the R&S?


Quote:
On 2013-03-06 21:05, trickyat86 wrote:
Ren and Stimpy?


LOL

Quote:
On 2013-03-07 14:56, Andrew Zuber wrote:
Personally I find the guy to be one of the most obnoxious things on the Internet. I don't care what he's rambling on about - I watched about 30 seconds of a video and shut the thing off, not because of the material but because of the fool presenting it.


I fully agree with you on that as he is a totally obnoxious and quite laughable character/idiot.
However, I find this undo concern over his exposing ID on YouTube also laughable. We, as magicians, are obviously very cognizant and wary, as it were, of any type of exposure. But, when all is said and done, it’s really a non-issue. After all, just how many people are going to take the due diligence and time to hunt out a magic trick on YouTube? Also, can you imagine someone sitting down with a mess of cards spread out on a table and haphazardly spraying will-nilly at them as he did!

Yes, I also hate exposure, but I’ve come to the conclusion that this is all much ado about nothing in the whole grand scheme of things. Will I ever be hesitant in any way of performing ID (?)... NO WAY. Hey, it's not exposure that harms magic, and or possibly gives it a bad name. It's 'magicians' performing magic POORLY!

Relax... Smile
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BatsMagic
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Quote:
On 2013-03-07 18:51, Stucky wrote:

I know this may sound like a crazy idea but hey why not try doing ID in some kind of fashion that ISN'T stock ID presentation? They only know what they see. Change the wrapping they won't know the contents. Steve Bedwell has a brilliant version. Remove the "invisible" part everyone knows and does and make it something more interesting. This way when you encounter the one person who might have seen this and committed it to memory they will be fooled!



Well, I never used to use the "invisible" part of the presentation until I spent $65 on the Wonder Box 3x. That allowed me to adapt that way of using it because it fit so well. I love my Wonder Box and will continue to use it and the 'invisible" part. When I do not have the Wonder Box (which is most of the time), I will not do it that way.

I am not afraid to use an ID just because of Brushwood, and I don't think anyone else should be either. But I still don't like what he did.
Ray Haining
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Rough and smooth, it came to me.
FrenchDrop
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On 2013-03-07 22:23, Ray Haining wrote:
Rough and smooth, it came to me.

Okay, now what does L&S stand for? Smile
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