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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts |
Sorry about the 33 years comment, I was trying to be funny, not sarcastic and it didn't translate well. My bad, I apologize.
Point 1 - never said it was, only that by working for free you are damaging things for everyone. I stand by that statement. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that. No problem here on that count. 2 - True, but my point about making it easier on yourself still stands. If you work for free, people are going to EXPECT you to work for free, making it more difficult to get paying gigs in the future. Side note: Some of us DO care about the industry as a whole and feel that if someone works for free that they are harming everyone, including themselves. 3 - I think you missed my point on this one. My comment was to point out that one has to charge to cover amortized costs of doing business, which includes all of the named issues. Yes, the client will pay what they are going to pay - which is what the market will bear. If someone in the market is willing to work for free, they are damaging the market. QED. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. As to Rich, there are ALWAYS exeptions to the rule. And generally, how many street magicians do you see working regularly doing trade shows and corporate events? Very few. Statistically VERY small number, same in actual raw figures. I stand by my opinion on that one. So, we agree on some things, and disagree on others. IMHO, this is a good thing as it has made me analyze my position more closely and try to commiunicate it more clearly. I hope I did better this time than last. And I really do apologize for the 33 years comment, re-reading it, it was out of line. I'll work a bit harder on trying to get my intentions across more clearly. Any failure to communicate on this issue was my fault. Still friends? Kind regards and thanks for your polite and considered post. Lee Darrow, C.Ht. http://www.leedarro.com
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
My pleasure.
As I said above, I'm all for charging a fee, but for the right reason. I believe that to tell someone that they should charge a fee because they're harming the industry by failing to do so is saddling them with an unreasonable burden. Additionally, I believe that telling someone that they should charge a fee because they've made a sizable investment is misguided. They may want the fee to defray their costs, but that's not an argument that goes far with a (potential) client. In analyzing my position I find that what I've been giving are reasons that a performer can give to a potential client to justify a fee. I just got an extremely well-paying booking for a Christmas party. When discussing the fee with my client, if I had said, "I have to charge you this fee because: 1. If I charge you less you'll always want me to work for less. 2. If I charge you less I will make it tougher for other magicians to charge more. 3. I spent lots of money on books, business cards, rubberbands and what not. 4. It gives me a better negotiating position. 5. By charging you less I would lower the value of our art in your eyes." she would most likely have told me that she planned to hire someone else. After, of course, she stopped laughing, stood back up, dusted off her clothing, and regained her composure. On the other hand, when I booked a eight-year-old's birthday party show last month and the father asked my why my fee was so much higher than others he had found, I told him that the reason was that my show was worth what I was charging. After the show, by the way, he came over to disagree with that statement. He said that it was worth more than he had paid. |
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KirkG Inner circle 1391 Posts |
I think that before you start charging for shows you should be good enough to charge. That includes technique and presentation. After you do a few tricks at a friends party, you may or may not be ready. That is not a measure of your ability, just a measure of how nice your friends are.
I support the idea, that you should work hospitals and the like, for free, to develop your performance abilities and get comfortable in front of a crowd. I also think it is a good idea to do pass the hat in the street, if legal and safe in your area, to develop additional skills in people control and routining. Then after all that, start charging. Charge a realistic fee, based on your skills, type of show, what the market will bear and enough extra to cover the business overhead of running your business. All that is fine, but just tell the client the price is what it is because it is worth it. No one here suggested you tell your clients why you charge what you do. It is none of their business. Yes, you do hurt the market by doing work for free. Period. If someone really wants something they will pay for it, unless they think they might be able to avoid it. Lots of people go to students to get cheap or free work in many fields. It is always harder to raise your prices and people do form an expectation as to quality based on price. If they can't afford you, then they don't get to have you. There is always the faction that say, I have to work so I will do anything to get a job. They will offer deals and savings etc. Some will say that the client knows this and just waits to see how much money they will save. There are always going to be cheaper magicians(photographers, carpenters, car mechanics) than you. It doesn't matter. If it does, you are not selling yourself correctly. Kirk Grodske |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-11-24 19:47, KirkG wrote: You seem to be suggesting that this is a bad thing. Would you care to elaborate? |
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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts |
S2000, Now I see where we are having trouble communicating on this issue. You are coming at it from the client's perspective and what one tells a client and I am coming at it from a self justification standpoint.
I agree with your points on what to tell a client, 100%. But the initial question seemed to ask for personal justification, the classic artist's insecurity over having to deal with matters financial. Or, at least that's what I took it to be, and couched my responses in that vein. Certainly, nothing I have said in here should be mentioned to a client, but should, IMHO, be kept in the mind of the performer in setting up their fees and to help them feel good about "cheating" the public by getting paid to play, as opposed to work. That last is a common internal myth among many newer magicians that I have met over the years, as well as many artists. My Dad put me through college drawing funny pictures for a major Chicago newspaper, so I had quite a bit of contact with the art world as well, and my brother has been a pro musician since about age 9, so these attitudes aren't something new to me, nor do they seem to be uncommon. IMHO, this insecurity that many people in the arts seem to have about charging, is a damaging concept, career-wise. The initial question seemed to have elements that addressed this idea and that's where I was coming from. NEVER tell a client you're hungry, have money troubles or need the work! Never justify your price, other than to state (and you better be able to back it up!) that your quality and experience are the reason. People like paying for the best, especially for party entertainment. Maybe it's a snob appeal thing. Thanks for helping me coagulate my thoughts on this issue, and for showing the other side of the coin! Kind regards, Lee Darrow, C.Ht. http://www.leedarrow.com
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
"No, no, no, Mr. client. I don't need the money. It's the people I owe who need the money."
;) |
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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts |
When I did a Christmas party for Discover Card a couple of years ago, I opened with,
"I'd like to thank you all for having me for this august occasion and for making it possible for me to pay my Discover card bill this month!" As the show was for the collections team, it played big. Good line, yours! Regards, Lee Darrow, C.Ht. http://www.leedarrow.com
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
I believe that one hallmark of a professional is the ability to adapt his material to fit the circumstances. Yours is a perfect example of how to do that well.
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KirkG Inner circle 1391 Posts |
Going to students can have either a postive or a negative motivation. On the positive side, the discount you pay can be offset by the possiblity that they may fail to provide a usable service. I.e. you get what you pay for. You are taking a chance of a less than satisfatory outcome by giving an unproven performer a try. Their lack of experience, both in the art and the business world, contributes to a low price.
On the other hand, there are those who know the student doesn't have the real world experience in negotiation and uses their expereince to beat down the student to an even lower price. There are very talented technicians that know how to take pictures, but don't know how to adaquately price them to properly support their business. Examples would be neglecting overhead or additional use rights in photography. So the price is artificially surpressed by their ignorance, not the quality of the work. As people begin to "do hobbies" professionally, they learn the ins and outs of business survival, or they fail. Kirk Grodske |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
I asked because of a couple of particular personal experiences of mine.
Since moving out on my own I've changed residences six times. On four of those moves we had friends help us: the sort of labor for which you pay with pizza and Pepsi. On the other two occasions we were moved by high-priced, presumably well-trained, professional movers. On only two occasions did we ever have anything lost, broken, or stolen: both times we used the professionals. When I was in college I got a phone message from a company wanting to hire a mathematician for what turned out to be computer programming for numerical control machinery. They sought a student--in particular, a math major--because they couldn't find a professional programmer who knew enough mathematics to do the job they needed to be done. There are many legitimate reasons that one might hire a student that have nothing to do with getting a cheaper price and the willingness to accept the risk of poorer performance. You might find that they do a better job than the professionals, and have a better attitude, in addition to being less expensive. I, for one, do not believe that they're they ruin the market in the least; if the professionals don't like it, they should get better, improve their attitude, charge less, or concede that they are not competitive and change professions. That's simple capitalistic economics, for which the students should not have to apologize. |
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KirkG Inner circle 1391 Posts |
I never said the students should apologize for being good at the skill they do. I said when they are too ignorant to charge a meaningful price that includes the ability to support their business, the dilute and therefore hurt the market.
As an example, If you operated a hamburger stand and I with "daddies blessings" decided to open a free hamburger stand close to yours, and was able to keep it up and provide an acceptable substitute for your product, you would go out of business. Certainly not all business can be as cut and dried as that, but the major principals are the same. In my area, there are many magicians. I have no problem telling people who find my $500.00 minimum, for close up magic too expensive, to keep looking. I don't try to help them find lower cost magicians, that is not what I am in business for. Usually, they really have no idea what to expect a magician to cost. Many times they will call me back later when their budget can afford it. I would rather pass on the first performance and get the second. Of course if they find another magician who works for less, I may never get the call. There is a market for the cheap, fair, expensive magicians. I am happy being one of the fair ones, and don't worry about not being one of the cheap ones. The higher you go up the price ladder the fewer the number of clients who can afford you, so you have to do a better job of marketing your service if you want to keep the same volume. Kirk Grodske |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
To determine what the market will bear (in an ideal world), you should adjust your price till a 1% increase in price results in a 1% loss in sales; then you are at what is known to economists at the point of unitary elasticity, and you have maximized your revenue.
In practice, in a service business such as ours, you cannot raise your prices by very small amounts conveniently, nor can you measure accurately your "loss" in sales. A rule of thumb I've read more than once is that you should expect about 20% of the people who want to hire you will not be able to afford you, and should adjust your price till you reach that level. |
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KirkG Inner circle 1391 Posts |
Bill,
I have hear the percentage can be as high as 40%. I expect it will have to so with your comfort level of rejection. I hate rejection, so I try to set it up, that I do the rejecting. Sometimes it is hard to identify if it is your price that prevents you from getting the job or another reason, so it is hard to accurately define these levels. Price is typically number 7 on a scale of 1-10 on reasons for hiring or not hiring in most industries. As we are both Castle members, perhaps we should get together one day there and debate and discuss various business strategies? I notice there aren't many lectures circulating on the business side of magic. My acumen comes from the photography and construction side of life. I attend seminars and lectures offered by these industries. Kirk |
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radiantentertainment Regular user Donald Collins 112 Posts |
If you have family or friends who are in the market for a magician charge them a fee. You don't make money off of your enemies. It is true that it is not your legal responsibility to charge a fee and not hurt the market. In my philosophical opinion it should weigh on your concience that you are lowering the percieved value for a service in a market for your fellow Magi. It is a market that is not that easy to make it in to begin with.
Do not do any gig until you have a well scripted and rehearsed show. After you have this show rehearsed and you want to iron it out do so for a childrens hospital, a nursing home, or the like. Someone not looking to pay a magician. If your going to do charity work do it for someone who needs it. If you are performing for a childrens birthday party figure they would have to pay 5-10 bucks a head to take the kids to a movie. Are you worth more or less than a movie? For restaurants look at their menu, see what it would cost for a family of four to eat. Consider that X amount. Your fee could be anywhere from X/2 to X*1.5 per hour. Go for X*1.5 if you can, when you negotiate down closer to X it will sound great to the decision maker. Your fee for a dinner party would be a mix between the two methods. The number of heads and look at what the host/hostess is probably paying caterer. This is my method for defining what to charge since no one would tell me when I started. It seems to work! Don
Life is not a dress rehearsal!
Less is more. & Knock'em dead! |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
When you are starting out or showcasing your talent often you can work for free... There is nothing wrong with that. It is a good way to get new ideas and do some shows and have fun.
When I started in the birthday party game I was eight years old. I put an ad in the local shopper newspaper and I built a show out of coffie cans and card board. My father and Mother were professional entertainers. And after having my oldest brother not like magic when my fater tried to teach him magic and use it. He decided not to teach me. So I wanted to be a magician I hit the books and made a show with coffie cans and cardboard. Now here is the point... My parents did not ALOW me to charge money untill they felt that I had a show that was worth the fee. And at that time the fee was $5.00 this was also the 1960's... So after about two years of doing shows for free I was alowed to charge a fee. Later I was asked to perform as the magician on the Bus O Fun. That was a school bus that went and did a birthday party on this bus. They had games and cake and a show on this school bus. I do shows now and I do some for a large fee and some for a small fee. The key to being a successful magician is to do lots of shows... The more shows you do the more money you will make. If this helps ask them what their buget is? And price to the buget... And yes I do free shows but often it is because I am getting something in return. Publicity, a job (a free night in a restaurant or a showcase for my hypnosis show). It is not what you charge for one show it is what all the shows add up to at the end of the year that counts. I hope this helps. Best ahead, Glenn Bishop
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Scott Ocheltree Veteran user 364 Posts |
I study and perform magic as a hobby. For me, doing a birthday party for a niece or nephew, or for the child of a good friend is something that I'm happy to share. On occasion I have been asked by a friend of a friend or an acquaintance. In this situation I always charge a fee.
I also donate magic shows as auction items for charity auctions. This way the person who wins the bid on the show pays something and I am able to make a charitable donation. I work for a fairly large company that hosts a Christmas dinner each year. They have traditionally had video clips and skits for entertainment. I have volunteered each year to do some magic. As this is a large venue (over 300 people) I don't have too much material in my repertoire for rooms that big. So this last Christmas I asked if I could expense a new item. This was readily agreed to. Now this month I have been asked if I would perform magic on a dinner cruise the company is hosting for a group of visiting partners. I will be doing close-up for small groups and maybe a short platform bit for the whole group. Since this is an event I would not normally attend and it is outside of my regular working schedule I have asked to be paid. In this case I am charging significantly more than my regular wage, but what is still a bargain for them. |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
I also used to do a free night to book a restaurant. And once in a while in the old days when I was going to start working in restaurants again after a layoff. I would find a restaurant and work for tips.
Then I would find another restaurant and then charge a small fee. Then find another restaurant and charge a higher fee. Then keep moving onto more and more restaurants at higher and higher fees untill I had four or five on different nights of the week. At the fees that I wanted. I would book the restaurants mon thru thursday and save the weekend for the shows. I find it easier to get a job when you have a job... Anyway it worked for me... I hope this helps, Glenn Bishop
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Let me give you an account of something that happened in Houston about 20 years ago, that took a long time to go away.
A "new guy" moved into town, and because of his social standing and lack of connections, he decided to go after a market that nobody else had hit -- Caféterias. All of the books on restaurant magic said that Caféterias were a horrible place to work. After all, Caféterias just didn't hire entertainment. It wasn't part of their program. Now, this new guy was a very competent magician. So he was able to deliver a good show to the customers. He had a "Burger" type agreement with them, that if he got a "real" gig, he could take off. He was charging $25.00 a night, and working a different Caféteria in the chain each night. That was roughly 1/4 of what everyone else who was working restaurants was making. He eventually branched out into other kinds of clubs, etc., but always at $25 per night. But his hard work paid off, and soon he had booked some major trade shows at far more than $25 per day! He got some major bucks for them, moved his offices -- yes, offices! -- to another town, and eventually became quite famous and is doing very well in the business. But as many as 10 years after he left, it was very difficult for anyone around here to get a restaurant gig for more than $25 a night, because the restaurant and night club owners remembered the days when they could book this guy for that price. So restaurants became the place where all of the so-called "part time pro's" went to be bad. It became the "vaudeville" of the close-up business.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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radiantentertainment Regular user Donald Collins 112 Posts |
Good example M. Palmer!
Like I said "It is true that it is not your legal responsibility to charge a fee and not hurt the market. In my philosophical opinion it should weigh on your concience that you are lowering the percieved value for a service in a market for your fellow Magi. It is a market that is not that easy to make it in to begin with." I think that this should be considered deeply. Hind sight is 20/20 but it is to late then.
Life is not a dress rehearsal!
Less is more. & Knock'em dead! |
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Chris Keppel Special user Kansas City MO 544 Posts |
I currently work 4 restaurants in the Kansas City area and I got all of them by offering a free night. When you offer a free night for the first time it lets them see exactly what they would be paying for, and what you can do for them, and there wonderful guest. I don't think I would have gotten them if I just went in trying to charge them money without showing them my skills. I aso think the normal going rate to ask for is 100.00 a night for about 2 hours. Most places have either had someone doing tricks, balloons, ect there or have had offers and they no the normal rate. If you go trying to charge 125.00 per hour you may get passed up for the other guy. On all my shows I like to work with people. I don't want someone to pass a show becuse I'm 20 bucks out of there price range. I normally charge per hour on private, corporate, or walkaroung. Unless its a restaurant that you will be working at hopfully a while. then you have to give them a little better deal for having you a few times a week every week. I also like to stay over my time each night. It really lets the place see that you have no problem staying over if they get busy. Besides there will be those nights that they are slow and you go a little early. All that I know is I have been doing restaurant for a long time now 4 sometimes more a week. I think they way I treat them is whats kept me around for so long. By the way restaurants is my only living. I make a full living off just my magic so take it from me. Treat the place nice, and they will keep you around for along time. I look at it this way. Say your restaurant work is from like 6:00 to 8:00 which is the normal times for restaurant work. If you leave right at 8:00 and you have 30 people wondering where you are, that doesn't look good on you. To where as if you stay a little over and take care of those few extra people and make there day, that's what the restautant really notices. that's just the way I work, and it has helped me keep great paying restaurants for years now.
www.chriskeppel.com
Kepp's Custom Carbon Fiber |
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