paul has done the right thing, and kept customers informed...we're a small community, paul has always been a good guy, I think he deserves to be treated as such in return...we're hopefully/supposed to be a community, and as such - understanding and patience is a good thing...

and for what is basically £30, its not really a big deal as far as I'm concerned, and I don't need any kind of compensation...the wallet will be enough (with the free P&P)...

why not just say what you want as compensation?

Iain, I agree with you absolutely. I know Paul for many years, guys, and I can tell you that he is one of the nicest and most correct persons I ever met in my entire live. Jan

Not to be sarcastic Adam, but the above quote has NEVER been the case with buying and selling in business. On the flip side- pre-order has been around a while. And from experience of pre-ordering, which most people that read and post here on the café have done, all know the potential failures of pre-ordering. That being said- that is why I stand by the statement, "Pre-order at your own risk". No ones perfect, no product is ever perfect, things happen. Pre-ordering is always a gamble.

RNK

I have no doubt that Paul is a great guy, I have no doubt that we will receive the wallet in good faith and it will be of excellent quality
I am not actively seeking compensation, I want the wallet in the time frames outlined when I gave over my cash

RNK mentions the buying and selling business, and yes we can be friends but at the end of the day, I purchased something as a customer, not as a friend
Given that we are a small community, we do have to have a bit of leeway you are right, that was the first batch being delayed, this is the second batch now, how can we be a community when things don't happen when we are told they will.

Look at the creative solutions deck, that worked perfectly, got a little bonus ebook and everything, fantastic!
Pre-order means to order something in advance of release, not to gamble money, when I pre-order a DVD from amazon, it comes if anything before the date (of course that's different but the customer/seller relationship is the same)

I know that the quote above is a little far-fetched but it's essentially the same principle in reverse

Last week a DVD was delayed, I got a bonus video
Last month a small effect was delayed, I got some extra refills and props
This has been delayed longer than both of those items

Sometimes it seems like people take those 'magicians' who purchase items to be mugs, but we are the ones buying the items - if people don't make their concerns heard how do we expect anyone to deliver on time? People will think they can take advantage of us mugs because we are all nice people (i am nice too, honest)

So what do you want?

The wallet when I was told I would have it

So, that can't happen can it...unless you want to pre-order the tardis?

just seems a bit of an odd line to take, so if you want something for basically waiting, then just be open about it! not having a go at you by the way...just trying to encourage open/honest discussion as we've gone this way...

just say "i, olympic adam want something else for free because of the delay - and I would like *this*"

roast beef sarnie hand cut by paul?

Seems like all he wants is to be treated like a valued customer, which seems fine to me. His point is not that he wants a specific thing or even something at all, he just wants a form of compensation, which has been done, like pre ordering, forever. If the manufacturer of a product doesn't meet his deadlines, it is extremely appropriate for the customer to be given a form of compensation, with whatever that might might.

Just trying to find out what he would think is appropriate! not trying to change his mind, just expressing my view...

No, I know it wouldn't be a go at me, I try to be as honest and open here as I can, I don't see an awful lot of it about these days,

maybe this is a more succinct way to put it,

I understand that there was a delay in the production of the wallet, as a customer I would like to know what Paul is doing about it other than just telling us? I feel that as a consumer making a purchase in good faith, some kind of gesture should be made to apologise for the delay. I understand that this was beyond Paul's control, however, I do feel that as this was Paul's creation, he is ultimately responsible for the delay

It's not up to me to decide what the compensation would be but I do not think it should be anything of additional monetary value or to recoup any of the price paid, I paid that for the product and I was/am happy to do so, it's the delay that's the issue

for example, if there was a video download for this, maybe send that out now, add a couple of routines in as a booklet for those who pre-ordered, if there are boxes of dud wallets lying around, send them out in the packages for us to play with (though I imagine they were sent back), a PDF of routines and ideas to get us exploring before we have the product - some form of goodwill gesture to make me feel like my purchase was a bit more valued I think

trying to make it a gesture of 'sorry, but I hope this makes up for it' rather than 'sorry, you will get it when you get it' - it's up to Paul to say how he sees the delay, it's not my product

Hi Guys,

I understand the frustrations of "Pre-Orders", and was reluctant to offer any products for pre-order, but in the end I (obviously) chose to do so.

Speciffically to Olympic Adam:

I'm not sure why you mention a deadline as there was never a deadline set. I have said in another thread "I hope to have this in stock by the end of April" and on my order page on the website it was stated that the wallets are "expected to ship in May of 2013". This is not a deadline, but rather a guideline. Even if I had stated May as a deadline, It's only a week late...not very alarming in my opinion; but this point is moot, as there was not a deadline.

To the question of a "freebie", the incentive offered for pre-ordering was a substantial pre-order discount PLUS free shipping, which translates to almost 25% off. The best I can do for Olympic Adam (or anyone else interested) is to offer a full refund, and will happily do so. And to this point Adam, you stated that the "time frame to object to a purchase" has passed...I'm not sure why this is an issue as you have not sent me any messages indicating any frustration or that you'd like your money back. To imply that you would have filed a claim with paypal if the time frame had not expired is very confusing to me. I will happily refund your money if you simply ask.

Of course, another benefit of the pre-order is assuring you will receive a particular product. With about 85% of the wallets I've had (or I should say, AM HAVING) manufactured already sold, I imagine the 15% I will have remaining will not last very long.

Also, I know some people have not received any of the email updates that I've sent due to my mis-filing their email address, so if Olympic Adam or anyone else has not received email updates I apologize for that...please let me know and I will check to be sure that the email address is filed correctly.

To summarize the delay, two batches of wallets have been made (both were ready in May), but were unacceptable. I've had no choice but to have them remade. I understand the frustration with a delay in the expected delivery time frame, but image the frustration had I decided to ship the flawed wallets (something I would never do). To the point of switching manufacturers, I have. The first manufacturer was unable to deliver satisfactory samples. The current manufacturer has done a great job with the samples but not with the production units.

The second batch was in my hands in about 3 weeks after voicing the problems with the first batch. I hope the time frame for the 3rd batch is just as quick, but will not compromise quality for speedy production.

I am currently working with a third manufacturer in regards to the Annihilation wallet, and hope to have this ready soon. I understand that the Annihlation wallet has been on pre-order for over a year, but this has not been advertised or "hyped" other that having a page on my site. I understand the "relief" of resisting the urge to pre-order that wallet in particular due the the extended time frame. This wallet is more complex than the Lookout, and as stated I am working with a third manufacturer now. With all of that said, the Annihilation wallet is not related to the Lookout and I would like to focus on the Lookout in this thread. If there are any questions feel free to PM me or email me, or start an "Annihilation Wallet Thread" and I will answer any questions.

So, in short thanks to all of those who have pre-ordered...if anyone would like a refund, please let me know.

BTW, you can see pics of the latest delivery here: https://www.facebook.com/MentalVoyage

Best,

PC

Hi Paul,
I mentioned the paypal timeframe thing because someone previously stated that we can apply for refunds though to dispute a transaction, you have to do it within a certain date, I have no intention of doing so because I believe that the product will be worth the money and of very high quality, and therefore have not contacted you for one - the wallet looks impeccable

"I hope to have this in stock by the end of April" and on my order page on the website it was stated that the wallets are "expected to ship in May of 2013". This is not a deadline, but rather a guideline.

Either way, if it takes another 3 weeks and one more week until I actually get it that will be into July. Stock in April ship in May is not a guide for July (even June, best case scenario)
I very much appreciate the discount and free shipping, and believe I commented on that in this, or another thread on the topic, however, that discount was related to the pre-order and the 'guidelines' you stated above.
Now that those dates have passed, I don't see how you can acknowledge the delay and not acknowledge that it has passed the original dates set out in the pre-order. If they were just guidelines then why mention the delay?

From my point of view the pre-order discount was in return for making a payment 2 months before I intended to receive a product. Since this might end up being doubled, do you intend to do anything about that?

I completely understand the troubles you are having with the manufacturers but as a customer I feel that the those problems shouldn't be on my time

Just to state, I have complete confidence in the quality of the purchase, and am very much looking forward to receiving it (perhaps this adds to my frustrations), though I must say in comparison to other delays, I feel a little undervalued as a customer

Also, Paul, none of this is personal in any way, and while this is not the only product to have been delayed that I have ordered from other suppliers, I feel all the points are still valid,

I take it Adam you are not a gamer. I had a pre-order for Duke Nukem Forever for 15 years. I have other pre-orders that were six months late and all I got was sorry. The fact he knows what the problem is, is working to fix it and offered a refund (something I could not get for Duke) shows he is working on it should make you feel good as a customer. He could just be saying "When it's done" and give no reason why there is a delay and offer no refund. Want to see how not to handle pre-order customers? Google Ocean Marketing...

I may be wrong but I think Olympic Adam just wanted to vent some steam. Personally I rarely pre-order because a creative magician doesn't mean a good project manager, it's often the opposite in a lot of cases. It's a good idea to think about their previous history before making a pre-order with someone. That's what I do anyhow.

best,
Sean

I always thought that Duke Nukem Forever was a joke with the name being a hint.

I certainly think this is the place the steam has come out but I do think it's valid - I feel sometimes like we just get mucked about. I take your advice about taking previous history into account, but seeing a prototype in the advert I thought it was near to production. This will surely have an impact in my future purchasing decisions, though this wallet does look great.

To me, releasing a product should involve having certain skills including planning, I realise this isn't always possible but some of it is simple and very basic.

Adam,

Please understand that you are a valued customer, and I appreciate your business...I don't see how this situation leaves you feeling undervalued...but please, let me know. I will HAPPILY refund your money from now until the wallet ships to you with no questions asked; just say the word.

As you seem aware of what I am about to say, the following is for the benefit of those not sufficiently conversant in "Pre-Order" scenarios. By advertizing something as a "Pre-Order" there is an inherent risk that the production guidelines will not be met for any number of factors. As, with most things, with risk, there is the possibility of reward, in this case, the reward is not a possibility, but instead an immediately redeemable commodity: a significant discount in price.

When an ad states: "Expected Release: May 2013" the pre-orderer assumes the risk that this "expectation" may not come to fruition, and is rewarded for this at the time of purchase by accepting the aforementioned discount. The key word here is "Expected" and is the entire basis for the pre-order discount.

As to the proper planning involved, well, this little wallet has been in the planning stage for over three years now. I did not make it available for pre-order until I heard from the manufacturer that I would have the units in early April. Naturally, assuming some delays, I noting that I expect to (in other places I've used the term "hope to") be shipping in May. Indeed, the first batch of wallets were ready in April, but, as already noted, were not up to par. The second batch, as previously mentioned, was ready in May, again, not without issue.

Obviously, if I was expecting to ship within certain guidelines, and did not...then that IS a delay. I did not and do not deny that. I am simply making the distinction between your use of the word "deadline" and my "guidelines". There was not (and is not) a guaranteed shipping date for this. There was no offer of "freebies" if the "Expected Shipping Date" did not come to be.

Additionally, if there are further issues the third time these wallets are produced, then I will have no choice but to deal with a new manufacturer, and will address that issue with all pre-orderers accordingly.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do...but if offering to refund your money 100% is not enough for you, I'm not sure what would help.

Also, I'm thrilled that you feel that wallet looks like it is worth waiting for, I can assure you that it is. I have to be certain it is perfect before I ship it.

PC

Paul is not only one of the most creative mentalists in the business, but also one of the most ethical in all his business practices. When I met him at MINDVENTION some years ago, I formed an opinion regarding his views on creativity and business. I am not one to easily impress in business, but he impressed me and my opinion since has never wavered.

When you order from him you will never get less than the best product he can . I wouldn't have it any other way.

Thanks for your words Paul,

At this time I very much do not want a refund, thank you for the offer
I do believe the product looks great and I look forward to it, though I did feel that I wanted to make my grievances as a purchaser known

I think the result is that I do appreciate letting us know, but my personal opinion is that I don't like the delay - I understand the circumstances but nonetheless, I don't overly like the situation

I now know your thoughts on the position and take them into account for the future

I am eagerly awaiting the wallet and thank you for clarifying your position on the delays

Thanks for understanding Adam.

Hopefully the wallets will be completed soon.