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avik_d Veteran user Targetting a Zillion, till now just 304 Posts |
Hello Friends,
Though I'm new to this forum as a member, I am that much old to this forum as a non member. I'm into magic for the last 7 years, (mostly as a serious amateur, sometimes as a semi-pro). I started with sleight of hand magic with cards and coins, just like a thousand other beginners; studied a lot about these, performed a lot for my friends at the University while I was a student there, still perform a lot for my colleagues in my office, my present workplace, and it's true that somebody said, "5 minutes of performance is equivalent to 3 hours of studying theory"... However, nowadays I'm shifting a bit more into Mentalism, though my sleight of hand magic is still something I enjoy performing very much. That's enough about me. I'd like to share some observation I made regarding cold reading. you won't find many people blindly believing in the Astrological readings that appear on the last page of weekly magazines; people are more alert now, and more knowing. They know about how the astrologers give vague statements so as to be true for nearly everyone reading those. In other words, they know about Barnum effect, just without knowing the name. I've been into cold reading for quite sometime now. I believe it's the most generic, and most vastly applicable form of mentalism. It's markedly different from ordinary thought reading. You ask someone to think of a flower, he does so, and then you pump/fish for it, or make a p**k or C.T. or whatever, and ultimately reveal it. I doubt if he's going to even recall your name tomorrow. But things are way different for cold reading. People will remember you as the person who revealed extremely personal information about you, everything bang on target, and also as that nice person who's not going to divulge this information any further, just to ensure your privacy. When you play with people's personal stuff, they are more susceptible to identify nicely with you... However, I seriously think it's not that much practical to take out a crystal ball or a deck of worn tarot cards from your hip pocket and start giving a reading with a serious tone over a cup of casual coffee in a Café on a breezy evening with friends. Everything has got it's place. These stuff would be more suitable for a gypsy fair. Definitely cold reading does require an attitude. you can't be in your faded jeans and that Metallica Tees with shades on, and flash out a human skull of your hip pocket all of a sudden while chatting with friends, neither you can talk big about psychological influences and suggestibility and subconscious minds and what-not when you are in a gypsy fair as the "reader" with a feather on your head and colored over-all and darkened eyes and a crystal orb and husky voice. You gotta do the same effect, but in a way that's suitable to whatever situation you're in. Secondly, you gotta make people wanting to listen to what you want to say, and also make them wanting to believe you, irrespective of whether they believe in these psychic stuff or not. I've devised an approach of my own for accomplishing these two targets. [ To tell you the truth, till the other day whenever anybody asked me to do a trick, I would take out my dollar size coins from my jeans pocket and do a 5 minute flurry to shake their heads off. Nowadays I'm more into studying people, and get something prepared, close to their lives]. To stop people from thinking that we readers are shooting out general and vague things about everybody and we expect them to identify at least some of these with their own lives, we have two well established methods by two of my favorite mentalists : Derren Brown and Kenton Knepper. In the awesome book Pure effects, Brown talks about launching a full fledged daring attempt in predicting something in details. In other words, you tell something about someone in intricate details. More often than not, this is going to fail. No problemo, you just shrug off and laugh it away. People won't remember. On the other hand, if it hits, it's going to kill them. Also, in the book Mind Reading, Kenton speaks of the "Technique that can't be explained". Unlike other mentalists, Kenton look to deliver predictions/readings that he WANTS to fail. Similar to Brown, Kenton shoots out detailed/particular stuff regarding somebody, and when it fails, he resorts to certain outs he deliberately planned to use there. In other words, he's trying to FAIL ,than to hit. I've something very similar to these. Suppose some friend of mine introduces me to his friend, and tells him big and small things about me as a mentalist (making that friend fall into a bucket full of conflicting beliefs and disbeliefs), and lastly asks me to show something to him. I'd approach the situation like this : I'd sincerely support the new guy, telling him that it's really impossible to determine whether I'm really a mind reader or a fluke. I may reel off many things about him, but how'd he know what's true ? Here comes the subtlety : I gaze intensely towards this person for a few moments, then shake my head as if I'm being assigned the task to deliver a very bad news to him, but I don't want to. I tell him,"Listen buddy, I don't know if it's right or wrong to say, but whatever I'd say now, try to forget that. Please don't believe my words. laugh it off as being gibberish from an insane person. I've asked many people not to take my words seriously. Seldom they did so. But I want you to ignore what I'm going to say, and forget those totally.... I believe mental peace should have the highest priority. You should be able to sleep well at night, not sitting up thinking of these stuff. Why lose your night's sleep over something that may or may not occur, that too not in very near future ? Ignore my words, have peace. Let things happen when they are supposed to happen. No need to worry about these. You promise me first, only then I will be sharing what I think about you and your life." Try to comprehend what's going on here. Skeptics most certainly are all gunned to prove me wrong. LET THEM. I myself am requesting them to ignore me. I myself am asking them to forget my words, and not to give that much importance to what I say. This is going to disarm them. This is the bottomline, IF YOU ASK SOMEONE NOT TO BELIEVE SOMETHING, THEY ARE SURELY GOING TO THINK AT LEAST ONCE IF THERE'S REALLY ANYTHING TO BELIEVE ABOUT THIS. Whatever I say after this introduction to them, they have a healthy chance of being influenced by that. I pass over to my usual Cold reading stuff here on. Ordinary things, might be something outrageously particular as sketched above, but they have a better chance of affecting the subject, only because of the introductory talk. I don't want things to hit the target as correct, I just want the subject to give it a thought. There might not be any meaning to what I said to him right then, but he himself can invent meaning to that on his way back home. The effect is entirely in his mind, it doesn't require to hit in the performance venue itself I've tested this time after time, and it's given me good results. I'd request you all to provide your comments on this approach. Apologies for this post being too long. Waiting to hear from you. Mods, feel free to edit my post if it seems to reveal something that lay people shouldn't be knowing.
Best,
-Avik |
chill Veteran user colorado, usa 385 Posts |
An interesting approach.
I spent most of my money on magic and women, the rest i just wasted
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Seems to be more based on negativity and discrediting than believability and optimism to me.
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts |
I would prefer to use a more conventional approach, and get hits right there with them.
To help assess this, how frequently do you do readings?
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
avik_d Veteran user Targetting a Zillion, till now just 304 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-03-28 11:01, Mindpro wrote: MindPro, may be it's just me, but I think there's no textbook way to make something believable to the audience. Any method that works, should be the one. Without discrediting the existing marvellous methods and approaches of thinkers, I think sticking to any particular method won't pay in the long run. We should grab anything available to us. In short, we should be on our toes at all time. Quote:
On 2013-03-28 11:07, TonyB2009 wrote: TonyB2009, Firstly, I'm not a full time performer. I just love performing for my friends and colleagues around. I'm more into impromptu stuff, and till the other day I used to grab some coins or take out my card deck to do some tricks for them. I'm more inclined towards real stuff these days, and Cold reading seems to be the best for this. It's not that I was ignorant of this in the beginning. I had ideas about this since the time I came into magic. However, now being asked to do something, especially if there's a stranger amongst the audience who doesn't know me, a short and handy reading seems the best choice. In fact most of the people in my Office block got to know that there's this magician kinda guy around. Every time I get down to the office Caféteria to grab some snacks, or to the pantry to have a coffee, more often than not I find someone calling me for a quick 5 mins performance. And since the time I started a bit of mentalism for them, people who knew me comment "you are turning creepier day by day"... So it boils down to at least 2-3 performances in a day's work !!
Best,
-Avik |
seadog93 Inner circle 3200 Posts |
It's interesting, I'll read it again later when I have a little more time.
It does seem to me to be based on the assumption that people will be skeptical and that you need to trick them into taking your readings seriously. Based on your performance area and situation that may be a concern. I do readings for people who ask to have readings. These people are mostly either believers, people who are uncertain but willing to give it a try or people (believers or skeptics) who just think it sounds fun. Once it's been established that they would like a reading, I just go ahead and do a reading; people generally take it seriously and are very interested in the reading, some people won't believe it but they still enjoy and often find it useful. Could you describe a little more of what you do for a reading and what your goals are in giving them? Your emphasis on the phrase "cold reading" and not being able to just start a reading over a casual cup of coffee makes me wonder. I've never had a problem doing a quick reading in jeans, over a cup of coffee, or pretty much anywhere. (that's not implying that I thin your doing something 'wrong' but I think it would be helpful to clarify exactly what we are talking about here).
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b |
avik_d Veteran user Targetting a Zillion, till now just 304 Posts |
To be very honest, when I started with mentalism, I immediately started with pretty much advanced stuff like psychological suggestions and all that. I hold a somewhat different idea about being a mentalist. To me, the powers of a true mentalist is not limited only to the parlors/stages where he performs; if he thinks himself of a true mentalist, His everyday actions should speak of that.
To clarify, for me cold reading is not like what psychic readers slowly do over a crystal, neither like what a palmist does. I am for quick and impactful things, which even may not fall under the category of cold reading altogether. Let me give you an example. I was on my way to the office pantry to fill up my mug with coffee after a hectic schedule. while coming back, I noticed a friend of mine, standing alone near the balcony outside the pantry, thinking deeply about something. He din't notice me, until I passed just by him, and whispered in a low voice "That isn't gonna work dude..". He was so much lost in his thoughts, that he din't notice what I said at first. Then all of a sudden he turned towards me and stared at me, his mouth open a bit. I smiled as if I knew what he was thinking, and while stirring my coffee, I added "go for something else, that's not the correct solution I guess." I walked away from there, keeping him standing. Later on he met me in my cubicle, and asked me how on earth I knew that he was pretty much disturbed regarding some personal problems and was thinking heavily on how to solve those. I didn't reply straightway. I asked him to sit besides me, and gently I started "giving him advice regarding his problems", all the while not knowing what his problem was. I started collecting clues from his replies, and built on them. He left my cubicle after a good ten minutes, thanking me for my help, and along with that commenting that I've been worshipping the devil himself. In reply to what seadog93 said, the mentalities of people who want to see a trick or two and those people who come to me for a reading, are somewhat different. Since I'm trying my stuff over the former category of people, I myself have got the responsibility to have them listen to it, and have a considerable chance to believe it. I think my approach can be summarized as : Guerrilla Cold Reading. Dunno if it's the best phrase though...
Best,
-Avik |
Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Many find readings to be advances stiff and not something to start with. All this talk about this topic and methods should not be here in this public forum, especially with this topic of the art. That's what downstairs is for. Read the rules of this forum and wait until you can access this area. It's set up this way for a reason.
Also it's not wise to come on here and "jump right in" with theories and such especially from someone who only dabbled in it for friends and colleagues. A more establishing approach may be wiser. |
David Numen Inner circle 2072 Posts |
To me it's magicians thinking.
Say you're a magician and you'll get a quizical eye as you try to do a trick - people will be looking to trip you up. Say you're a psychic and people want a question answered. If you do so sincerely with their best interests at heart you will be remembered and believed. Skeptics don't want readings. |
seadog93 Inner circle 3200 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-03-28 15:10, David Numen wrote: Yeah, I pretty much agree. "Guerilla readings" to me sounds like "assault readings," which I am not in favor if myself. For the most part what was described above doesn't fall into my definition of a reading.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b |
Mark_Chandaue Inner circle Essex UK 4187 Posts |
I'm not sure I like the approach but there is something to be said for telling people to ignore you and not to believe you. Telling people what not to do has a tendency to get them to do exactly the thing you told them not to do. It's the old "Don't think of an elephant" principle. As soon as you tell someone "Don't think of an elephant" most people will immediately think of an elephant, they can't help it.
Funny enough when I was the Hamleys resident magician this principle inadvertently increased the sales figures because the more I tried to talk someone out of buying something that was either unsuitable or simply of not a high enough quality for me to want to sell, the more determined they would be to buy it. This was true of laymen buying full sized linking rings and arm choppers etc for their 5 year olds but was also true of magicians buying our dove pans even after I told them that Ron McMillans were a third of the price and 5 times the quality of ours. As Mindpro says a little too much negativity but keep the approach and lose the negativity and this may be worth exploring further. |
Suren Veteran user Armenia 314 Posts |
I might actually try this kind of approach and post my results. But. I think that you don't have to stress the forgetting part. Saying it once and mentioning for the second time is enough, isn't it?
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Mr. Woolery Inner circle Fairbanks, AK 2149 Posts |
Skeptics may not want readings, but I think I see what Avik is getting at.
Lowered expectations reduce the challenge. If a friend tells me he knows a spirit medium who can contact anyone in spirit, I am going to have a serious challenge for him because I do not believe he can do so. (For any mediums out there, if you can tell me my mother's computer password, we really do need it. She died less than a week ago, quite unexpectedly and we are having serious trouble with some financial records we can't access without the password.) If I am uncertain about your skills, I would more easily be impressed if you start off with lowering my expectations than if you told me "I'm the best reader you will ever meet, prepare to be amazed." I think of it as being similar to the guy who tells me he isn't all that good with cards, but would like to show me something. His routine may be only basic, but I'll be prepared to see a basic routine, so I can appreciate what he does better than if he raises expectations on me. -Patrick |
Seyner New user France 3 Posts |
Very interesting approach!
"THE ALL is MIND; The Universe is Mental."
The Kybalion. |
John C Eternal Order I THINK therefore I wrote 12945 Posts |
Lot to digest
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Firstly - please be VERY careful about giving advice out...the potential for harm can be great... in a reading you are ALWAYS putting that person first, not chasing hits, not doing anything else other than exploring metaphors and imagery via a conversation/exploration between two people (well, depending on HOW you give a reading I guess)...
secondly - my only real question to you is... why do you want to give (in your terms) a reading? oh and when you say cold reading, do you mean using statistical and psychologically driven info to get "hits"? or do you mean using a system/oracle (such as psychometry or tarot)?
I've asked to be banned
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Kasoom New user 23 Posts |
I've never felt comfortable with just making wild guesses, and always try to use intuition. One thing that works for me is Far Reaching Predictions by Craig Browning.
http://www.mevproshop.com/far-reaching-numbers.html More recently, Ive started to throw tarot spreads and other divination methods in advance, so I have a good jumping off point to work with. Then I use my intuition to flesh out the answer when I am working with a client or audience member. I'm obviously biased, but I believe this HAS dramatically improved my accuracy, and the feedback I get seems to confirm this. This works well for both personal readning and headline hurling. If I pull stuff out of one of my orfices, I don't take myself seriously and neither does anyone else. When I endeavor to use actual insight, even the misses don't bother the recipients, because the detail combined with the connection we have is a special experience. |
avik_d Veteran user Targetting a Zillion, till now just 304 Posts |
Mark_Chandaue
You are absolutely right with that. It's indeed something like the "Don't think of an elephant" ruse. Another aspect of it might be like the way some performers make themselves seem like part of the audience; they are also facing the challenge to explain the wierd things that are happening on stage. People can identify themselves with the performer, and is less likely to challenge him. My approach is something like that, as if I've been empowered with a wierd capability to read about peoples' lives, and in turn that brings out quite a few unwelcome informations that are not welcome to be recalled for the subjects. It's like me and my subject are team; My request to them to ignore my words for the time being stands for this. I'm not claiming that my readings are wrong. I'm suggesting that they may be right in course of time, but why lose peace over it right now ? the truth is, they WILL LOSE PEACE after hearing this. Mr. Woolery, I believe you aboslutely got what I was trying to convey. Thanks so much !! Thanks PsychicWisdom and John C for your kind words. IAIN, That was not exactly like giving free advice to people. It's sort of a warning you can say. It's like "I can say many things about you, may be some personal/disturbing things, but pondering on those may hamper your peace. So please...." Secondly, I myself really am not terribly biased towards giving readings. It's just that you can start cold reading without any input from the subject. It's unlike most other mind reading practices. The beauty of cold reading is that you catch on the running feedbacks from the subject and build on them. I'm not very much supportive to stock lines. In my opinion, building your talk as you go on is much more natural and inidividualistic, if that's the right word to use. You mentioned of using statistical and psychological/demographic information to get the first hit before I go over to the actual readings. Yes that's something I use, sometimes contrary to what I wrote above; because psychometry/tarot/palm reading may seem a bit too much ritualistic/supernatural for the subject. I can go for these oracles sometimes, but I prefer not to give the subject any hint about what my method is, be the hint a wrong one. I believe - and I may be wrong - that using oracles like tarot cards, crystal orbs somehow draws out the power from you and assigns it to those stuff. To the subject, it's not your own power, but somehow you came to learn to read the signals from the taror/crystal. In today's modern world also there are billions of people believing in palmistry, tarots, tea leaves, so on and so forth. For them, these readings only strengthen their superstitions. what about giving a more psychological appearance to the readings ? There are thousands of palm readers and astrologers around. Why add one more to them ?
Best,
-Avik |
Peter_turner V.I.P. Bradford, West Yorkshire 1355 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-03-28 08:35, avik_d wrote: I don't carry these items as these are not my style BUT credibility is bred in many forms. People EXPECT to see these items and as they are instantly recognisable, as soon as these items are brought out there is an instant amount of credibility formed (in the mind of the sitter) before you start even start to give a reading. So they can be viewed as a strong tool. Quote:
On 2013-03-28 08:35, avik_d wrote: The way you are approaching things, from a creative point of view would be more credible if you were wearing your regulars (like the faded jeans and Metallica top). Its almost like you just had a thought while you were out (in a natural situation) and approached the person you are going to give a reading for because you were drawn to them. Psychologically because you are dressed naturally it looks like you really didn't expect to meet anybody to give them a reading(again breeding more credibility after you leave). Clothing can be used in a reverse sense too. Quote:
On 2013-03-28 08:35, avik_d wrote: Derren and Kenton amazing performers; Kenton is like a dad to me and has been one of my inspirational figures for his thinking. You can be specifically intricate without failing from the off, you just have to focus on your use of words, how you approach things is the most important thing. Because we don't have the same credibility from the off that tarots and crystal gazers have, we need to focus on specifics but in a sideways manner and using the "Generic" mentalism is always a viable option. It's how you use it...If you feel what you are doing is generic within mentalism you have to ask if that's a reflection upon your work in that area (I am not saying it is as I don't know you). From one name reveal you can have a 10 minute reading (not saying you should but it's certainly possible). I agree with Ian, if you are focusing on hits (which is something I fear I do too much) you are reading the person for the wrong reason BUT as an open I think it is essential you breed credibility as fast as possible. Quote:
On 2013-03-28 08:35, avik_d wrote: It's a lovely approach with an air of reverse psychology, just take into account what Ian and mindpro have said here, it is about the sitter and instilling that their might be something bad you needed to deliver them can be dicey. Imagine using this approach and nailing an amazing reading, the person is totally a massive believer in you now and when they think back to the start of the reading they will be paranoid from this point that something is going to happen and that can be life changing for them (if the believe is so strong you could make somebody agoraphobic). So if you are going to approach using this open, wash the open away at the end. It makes the open void after giving a massively great reading. It's as simple as saying "When I came over here you saw the look on my face, I was drawn to you and I never know whether I will be delivering somewhat bad or good news and that is why I looked so concerned. With you it has been all positive, you have a positive aura about you and even though you have had past adversity's I see you using them adversity's as ammunition to achieve a positive future". (That was just a very quick example) BUT it makes them disregard the bit at the start that is no longer needed once you have nailed something amazing. If anyone needs to know just how life changing a reading can be I have mentioned this in another post somewhere. My ex partner who I had a house and life with was told by a psychic reader that I was cheating on her, I didn't respect her and I had got some other woman pregnant (Probably because my ex was already worried and paranoid of it happening) it confirmed what my partner had been paranoid about. I had never done any of these things. The word of someone who was credible had the deciding factor in my fate and shes an ex for a reason. She got the house and everything in it and I was back at square one. So words from a seemingly credible source to a believer can have devastating effects. Welcome to the Café, nice approach to things. Keep sculpting to pull away from everyone, in thought and practice. Having your own direction is a marvelous thing. Constantly refine everything, if you always believe something is not perfect then you will constantly strive to make everything you have better. BUT Always remember there are people on here that are absolute genius' and have experience and knowledge you can't find in books. They sometimes mention things you will have NEVER contemplated thinking about, this place can be a bit burly and argumentative at times but every once in a while someone spills out something that makes it all worthwhile. Keep a watchful eye, get your post count up and add stuff like this in Inner thoughts. I look forward to seeing you around. Pete x |
avik_d Veteran user Targetting a Zillion, till now just 304 Posts |
Peter, Thanks a lot for the wonderful things you've written. Recently I read your book "Dare to be bold", and was stunned by your approach there. It's nothing new technically, but the way known principles were applied was just marvellous. I will discuss something about that book with you through PM.
As to what you said regarding the approach towards reading, I must say your view regarding this is crystal clear and robust too. As I've stated in a previous post, I'm not looking to get hits with whatever I say, I'm not trying to put some legal papers forward, claiming that those are the only truths in the universe; instead I try to provide the subject with something that may not seem to have any meaning for him at first, but he should be able to give some meaning to it, may be later on. It's my job to provide him with this "can't-map-it-right-now-but-there's-certainly-some-meaning-to-it" stuff, and along with that the motivation to ponder over it later on. The Reverse psychology that you talked about achieves just this, though in a different way. Long before I joined the Café as member, I've been following the threads here for nearly 3-4 years. You are absolutely right, here are some people whose brilliant thoughts may never see a publisher, but are gems in itself. And it's through discussion and sharing the perceptions of the members here, everybody will be benefitted. I registered in TMC forum just to get in touch with the amazing thinkers around here, and to share our views. Hope to have my journey amongst you guys a truly memorable and rich one.
Best,
-Avik |
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