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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Your children belong to the State (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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tommy
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Political parties are just as much a fantasy as imagination, especially when extravagant and unrestrained.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
landmark
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Quote:
On 2013-04-08 23:00, Dannydoyle wrote:
Don't worry landmark. Your views of other political parties are just as much fantasy.

Examples? I may not agree with the views of other parties, but I don't tend to mischaracterize those views.
lunatik
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Quote:
On 2013-04-08 08:53, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-04-07 23:42, Bob1Dog wrote:
I am so-o-o-o glad that my wife and I decided early on not to have children. Just my wife and me. The rest of the folks who would place demands upon us on how we should live our lives be d*m*ed

Agree 100% with you there, Bob1Dog. There are some folks who think you're evil if you're married but not procreating.


I am actually happy when liberals don't want to procreate! Smile
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
Woland
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Hi Magnus,

Quote:
Oddly, there are two stories at the link. The first criticizes an MSNBC ad for suggesting that parents aren't the only important authority in raising their children, and the second attacks Krystal Ball (is that really her name?) for raising her child as she sees fit.


You're confusing or conflating two entirely different things here.

It is perfectly coherent to defend a parent's right to control the education of her children, while at the same time deploring the content of what she teaches them.

The fact that I object to those who would give the State all authority to raise our children (a socialist dream since Plato) does not mean that I approve of the way every parent chooses to educate her own children.
Magnus Eisengrim
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But Woland, nothing in the site or the pieces it criticizes advocates giving "the State all authority to raise our children".

And you really do misunderstand Plato if you think he was a socialist.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
tommy
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The technique that are used on the public is as old as the hills. You’ll find in Plato’s "Republic" where he talks about the ideal world utopian society run by a dominant minority called the guardians.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Woland
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Hi Magnus,

I would love to do a close reading of "The Republic" with you some time, over a few short single-malts.
tommy
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Plato, also talks about music entertainment - the fashion industry - and all that was a powerful force for directing the minds of the young. It's all the culture creation business. don't you know.
Some people can't see past the end of their nose. They watch TV fiction and think it's nothing to do with the state if the state isn't mentioned. Do really think what they talking about is nothing to do with the state agenda? The agenda oneness. Oneness in everything. When I say everything, I mean everything. Old is Young, Right is Left, Black is White and so on. All things are being entwined. Inter-twisted!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
rockwall
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Quote:
On 2013-04-08 22:03, landmark wrote:
Rockwall, I'm sure you are aware that there are many organized religions that hold that the purpose of marriage is to procreate. That was what I was referring to.
And no, your fantasies about the views of the Green Party about procreation are just that.


Believing that the purpose of marriage is to procreate is quite different than thinking someone is evil if they decide not to have children. It may be that we both hold fantasies that are not quite accurate. My fantasy however, wasn't about the Green Party per se, as I stated, but about many of it's members.
Woland
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Thanks, tommy. On this one, you and I are definitely on the same page.
Magnus Eisengrim
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FWIW, the central question of The Republic is whether it is better to be just than unjust.

There are some odd and in places contradictory comments about public and private property, and parental authority over children. It is very difficult to tell what, exactly, Plato believed about any of these things.

In addition to Plato's rhetorical disguising of his own opinions, it is important to remember that he was writing against a political backdrop very different from our own. His readers would bring a different set of beliefs and suppositions to the text than we do.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Woland
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One can always entertain a doubt about what the author of a book "really" thinks. But the ideas advanced in the Republic are fairly standard for most socialist utopias since: the abolition of marriage, the production of children by eugenic couplings, the rule of a clique of wise men who know better, the militarization of authority, and so on.
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A logical continuation of the ideology expressed in the clip in the OP might be the banning of private schools altogether.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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In The Republic Plato's "ideal city" forbids the highest public officials from owning property--or at least severely restricts it. It's clear that the producing classes can own property.

Is this socialist? Hard to say. Is it something we'd like to live with? Probably not. Was Plato even talking about a real city? I don't think so?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
acesover
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OK enough is enough. Plato was gay. How come no one mentioned that?

He believed that sex with another man was beautiful, while sex with a woman was lustful.

So what difference does it make what Plato thinks? He is just an individual, just as you and I. Although if you are reading this there is another difference. He is dead a long time and you are alive now.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2013-04-09 13:09, rockwall wrote:
...
Believing that the purpose of marriage is to procreate is quite different than thinking someone is evil if they decide not to have children. ...


One is a basic error in understanding biology while the other is the sort of opinion best kept to comedy routines.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
rockwall
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Speaking of 'Who's Your Daddy', went to a preview showing of Starbuck last night, a new Canadian film (French w/ subtitles), and loved it. Probably the best film I've seen this year. It's all about a bit of a screw-up who finds out that he's fathered 533 children over a period of 2 years making numerous donations to a sperm bank and now 142 of them want to know who their father is. Very funny and touching at the same time. Previously released in Canada, it should be getting major release here in the states soon. Highly recommended!
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2013-04-10 12:15, rockwall wrote:
Speaking of 'Who's Your Daddy', went to a preview showing of Starbuck last night, a new Canadian film (French w/ subtitles), and loved it. Probably the best film I've seen this year. It's all about a bit of a screw-up who finds out that he's fathered 533 children over a period of 2 years making numerous donations to a sperm bank and now 142 of them want to know who their father is. Very funny and touching at the same time. Previously released in Canada, it should be getting major release here in the states soon. Highly recommended!


The plot is like a recurring nightmare I've been having lately. Sounds great, though. Thanks for mentioning it as it sounds like a great film.
landmark
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Quote:
On 2013-04-09 13:09, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-04-08 22:03, landmark wrote:
Rockwall, I'm sure you are aware that there are many organized religions that hold that the purpose of marriage is to procreate. That was what I was referring to.
And no, your fantasies about the views of the Green Party about procreation are just that.


Believing that the purpose of marriage is to procreate is quite different than thinking someone is evil if they decide not to have children. It may be that we both hold fantasies that are not quite accurate. My fantasy however, wasn't about the Green Party per se, as I stated, but about many of it's members.

Still a fantasy. Have you ever tried actually talking to some Green Party members?
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2013-04-11 00:54, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-04-10 12:15, rockwall wrote:
Speaking of 'Who's Your Daddy', went to a preview showing of Starbuck last night, a new Canadian film (French w/ subtitles), and loved it. Probably the best film I've seen this year. It's all about a bit of a screw-up who finds out that he's fathered 533 children over a period of 2 years making numerous donations to a sperm bank and now 142 of them want to know who their father is. Very funny and touching at the same time. Previously released in Canada, it should be getting major release here in the states soon. Highly recommended!


The plot is like a recurring nightmare I've been having lately. Sounds great, though. Thanks for mentioning it as it sounds like a great film.


sometimes glad that coin tricks don't come with such responsibilities.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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