|
|
|
|||
| Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4~5~6~7 [Next] | ||||||||||
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts 
|
Quote:
On 2013-04-12 18:58, R.S. wrote: IMHO there is perfectly objective perspective. Einstein suggested positing things in as covarient/invarient a form as possibe - see Relativity for example The other way - that of explicity accepting covarient or subjective forms seems alien to our culture. Other and all that...
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
|
Bob1Dog Inner circle Wife: It's me or this houseful of 1159 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2013-04-12 19:02, mastermindreader wrote: Thanks a million Bob. I appreciate your encouragement.
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums. |
|||||||||
TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3171 Posts
|
Ron, I can't believe you don't believe your own sister. LOL
Not only do I believe in miracles, I expect miracles. Of course I don't expect all miracles to come with a puff of smoke. I personally don't think the miracle maker is doing it for the attention, so the fact that it can be explained has nothing to do with the fact that it did happen. Besides, stringing together several happenings to arrive at the right result is even a bigger miracle. I see miracles like we see that tree in the forest, we only see it when we look for it, or it falls on us. But I'm sure there are times when it does require a snap of the fingers to get the job done. Like floating a baby for your sister. But that's no big deal, and the secret of faith is safe, because nobody will believe it anyway. 
Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
|||||||||
|
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
|
Everything is a miracle. Great oaks from little acorns grow. I wonder how the acorn knows what it must grow into?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
|||||||||
kambiz Inner circle Perth, down by the cool of the pool 1129 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2013-04-12 18:23, R.S. wrote: Hi Ron, so I guess giving you a link to the entire body of Baha'u'llahs Revelation is not a viable alternative read for you? Lol.....only messing with ya mate I know it's quite lengthy but I guess it is relevant if you are fully committed to your question, maybe?
The purpose of religion has been to purify the conduct of humans, that is the purpose of Revelation. Truth has little to do with it in my opinion. If Revelation is studied and it has an outcome that benefits mankind through action, then you have your own science lab right there. Study the early communities of all religions, you will see the positive testing of Revelation through scientific means. The only early community acting upon a recent Revelation is the global Bahai community, I suggest you google "Bahai community" and read the links. If there is nothing beneficial that the community is doing then PM me
Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break. .....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay! |
|||||||||
|
R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 188 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2013-04-12 21:07, TomBoleware wrote: Hi Tom, Thanks for your perspective. I really do appreciate it! I do believe that my sister (and everyone who claims miracles) is sincere in her belief. But wishful thinking and the psychological illusion of time warp during traumatic events are much more likely explanations than gravity ceasing to work. The former are known to happen, whereas the latter has NEVER been observed. Well, if you expect miracles, and you are predisposed to believing in them, I'm sure you will encounter many. When somebody wins a significant lottery (but not a $10 prize from a scratch ticket, right?), it's a miracle. When you are in a rush to go to work and you hit all the green traffic lights, it's a miracle. When your sports team beats a higher ranked team, it's a miracle. Especially if you had prayed for all these things. But what of the person rushing to work who got all the red lights due to you getting your green lights? Why weren't his/her prayers answered? Or the fans of the team that lost to your team - why weren't their prayers answered? Where is THEIR miracle? You say, "so the fact that it can be explained has nothing to do with the fact that it did happen." But... if it can be explained, then guess what? It can be explained! No miracle necessary! The kind of thinking that ignores a rational natural explanation in order to interject a much more improbable supernatural explanation has me scratching my head. Exactly how many "stringings of happenings" are required in order to be considered a miracle? And what type of happenings? And what is the "right" result? If, for example, a cold-blooded serial killer contracts cancer, which at some point seems to miraculously cure itself, was that a miracle from God? Or was it spontaneous remission, which is known to happen? Or was the diagnosis of cancer incorrect in the first place? Now, what if instead of the serial killer, it was a priest or the Pope who contracted the cancer and experienced the "healing"? Is THAT a miracle? Why would most people stop searching for an explanation in the latter example and call it a miracle when they would continue searching for a non-miracle explanation in the former, serial killer, example? You say, "But I'm sure there are times when it does require a snap of the fingers to get the job done. Like floating a baby for your sister." But what about all the babies in the world that died that day or week due to cancer or malnutrition, and despite parents who prayed for them? My sister's not even religious. Why would God enable a miracle for her, but ignore the others? Take care. :) Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
|
|||||||||
|
R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 188 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2013-04-12 22:03, kambiz wrote: Hey Kam, Thanks, I understand that you are really trying to help. But I was hoping you could condense the Baha'u'llahs Revelation into a sentence or 2 or 3? If I had to read the entire Koran every time I asked a simple question on Islam, or the entire Bible or the entire Book of Mormon... well, you know. I don't doubt that the "Bahai Community" is doing beneficial things. All religions can point to some beneficial aspects of their teachings. But we don't NEED religion to do beneficial things. We mostly need common sense, empathy, respect for one another, and an understanding that as human beings, we all have similar basic needs and desires. And there are bad ways (superstitions) and good ways (evidence-based) of achieving those desires. Best wishes. :) Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
|
|||||||||
|
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
|
In three words: New World Order
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
|||||||||
|
kambiz Inner circle Perth, down by the cool of the pool 1129 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2013-04-13 10:05, R.S. wrote: Ron, I really honour your respectful and courteous approach to this discussion and really, you are an example for religious folk to follow! It really is a pleasure to converse with you, thank you
In response to your perspective presented, I totally agree with you. Revelation needs to be evidence-based, otherwise there is no point to it, its just words and nothing more. Moreover, I would suggest science needs to be evidence-based too. Both prongs of reality need to be tested. We no longer live in an age where we require clergy to tell us what is and what is not to be believed. We have all the capacities and knowledge at our fingertips to tap into to "fully investigate the truth" Baha'u'llah outlines the unfettered search for truth as a KEY principle for religion going into the future and this is the hallmark of His Revelation. What I would say, to add to your comments is the unbridled value of UNITY. Religion, when practised as a united body has incredible influence and is a source of inspiration. It can transform neighbourhoods, villages, cities, countries and vast regions of the globe. In the past this unity was brought about by aggressive means for the propagation of the principles and teachings of a Revelation (look at the Crusades, etc etc), but this is no longer acceptable according to Baha'u'llah, uniting vast peoples of diverse backgrounds is done through conclusive and intellectual appellation to the human mind and spirit, and this is how the human spirit will prevail to bring about continued advancement and betterment for all who wish to be part of this "community", and even more so for those who are not an active part. Common sense, logic, empathy and respect are all "part" of the process yet the world is so much more complex than the outcomes of individualised efforts. The value of collective efforts cannot be underestimated.
Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break. .....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay! |
|||||||||
|
TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3171 Posts
|
Ron, one day you going to walk out in the forest and say, "dang, I see a tree out there, who put it there?"
I'm going to walk by and whisper, "it's a miracle." :) Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
|||||||||
|
R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 188 Posts
|
Kam, glad we're in agreement (mostly)!
Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
|
|||||||||
|
R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 188 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2013-04-13 11:18, TomBoleware wrote: Tom, This explains where trees come from: http://ben.biomimicry.net/uni/2012/where-do-trees-come-from/ But if I ever found myself in a forest, you seem like a good friend to have around.
Thank you, Tom. Ron :)
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
|
|||||||||
|
Potty the Pirate Inner circle 4633 Posts
|
R.S., your comments about traffic lights reminded me of a very strange period of my life:
"Green lights all the way...." I lived in St Albans, Hertfordshire for two years. I’d just returned from working at sea, and travelling the World for many years, so I didn’t own a car for the first 18 months. I walked everywhere. After a few weeks, I noticed a strange thing was happening – every time I approached a road crossing with traffic lights, (and St Albans is a very busy town, with a lot of traffic), the “green man” would flash up just as I reached the lights – allowing me to carry on walking unhindered. It went on for some months, and I became almost blasé about it.....practically expecting to see the flashing green man appear just as I reached the lights. This went on for the entire time I lived in St Albans. I walked a lot, even walked 2 miles to work and back every day – and every single time, without exception – the green man would flash up as soon as I reached a crossing. Even if I was with a friend, or group of friends, the same thing would happen. After 18 months, I bought a car, but still walked a lot – and in the entire 2 years I lived in St Albans, I never once had to stop at traffic lights, as a pedestrian. Quite what to make of that, I don’t know – but by that time, I’d already experienced enough weird coincidences, to accept that for some unknown reason, I was getting “green lights all the way”. Perhaps it was just a sign that I was walking the right path in life, I still don’t know, and doubt I ever will. As soon as I moved to another city, this phenomenon ceased. But it was a very remarkable bit of “strange” that seemed to have no logic or sense, but which I was fully aware of. Doug |
|||||||||
|
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
|
The interrelationship between the little green men and the will of the people and the Kibbo Kifts apparent ability to control either one with the other is the very definition of magic.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
|||||||||
|
Woland Special user 680 Posts
|
I think Hegel had something to say about trees, too.
|
|||||||||
|
R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 188 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2013-04-14 14:05, Potty the Pirate wrote: Doug, Weird coincidences are just that - weird coincidences. But they don't mean much. Even when you experience many of them. Just as lots of weak evidence doesn't add up to good evidence. It's possible that when you took notice of the coincidence after the first few genuine occurrences, you subsequently subconsciously accelerated or decelerated your approach just enough to "make" the green man flash. Kind of like a walking version of the ideomotor response. But, even if we grant that this is some sort of "miracle", you have to ask what purpose it serves. What aspect of the universe is concerned with traffic lights? What is the controlling mechanism in use? And why inconvenience the other pedestrians (you say it was very busy) in order to accommodate you? Mere coincidence is far more likely than a universe with the characteristics necessary for "Doug traffic light control." Ron :)
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
|
|||||||||
|
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
|
Isn't science based on coincidences? Maybe it's just a coincidence all them apples fell from the tree to the ground.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
|||||||||
|
kambiz Inner circle Perth, down by the cool of the pool 1129 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2013-04-14 19:49, tommy wrote: Well tommy, this now brings us firmly into the realms of "what is physical reality"? According to Baha'i theology, the physical world is not reality at all. Light hits an object, something happens to the light, then our eyes pick up that remnant, same with all other senses. Physical reality is a symbolic representation of a more profound (beyond our five senses) reality according to Baha'i theology. Couple of my favourite passages from Abdu'l-Baha are: "A bird, on the summit of a mountain, on the high, waving branches, has built for itself a nest more beautiful than the palaces of the kings! The air is in the utmost purity, the water cool and clear as crystal, the panorama charming and enchanting. In such glorious surroundings, he expends his numbered days. All the harvests of the plain are his possessions, having earned all this wealth without the least labor. Hence, no matter how much man may advance in this world, he shall not attain to the station of this bird! Thus it becomes evident that in the matters of this world, however much man may strive and work to the point of death, he will be unable to earn the abundance, the freedom and the independent life of a small bird. This proves and establishes the fact that man is not created for the life of this ephemeral world—nay, rather, is he created for the acquirement of infinite perfections, for the attainment to the sublimity of the world of humanity, to be drawn nigh unto the divine threshold, and to sit on the throne of everlasting sovereignty!" "The exaltation of the animal world is to possess perfect members, organs and powers, and to have all its needs supplied. This is its chief glory, its honor and exaltation. So the supreme happiness of an animal is to have possession of a green and fertile meadow, perfectly pure flowing water, and a lovely, verdant forest. If these things are provided for it, no greater prosperity can be imagined. For example, if a bird builds its nest in a green and fruitful forest, in a beautiful high place, upon a strong tree, and at the top of a lofty branch, and if it finds all it needs of seeds and water, this is its perfect prosperity. But real prosperity for the animal consists in passing from the animal world to the human world, like the microscopic beings that, through the water and air, enter into man and are assimilated, and replace that which has been consumed in his body. This is the great honor and prosperity for the animal world; no greater honor can be conceived for it. Therefore, it is evident and clear that this wealth, this comfort and this material abundance form the complete prosperity of minerals, vegetables and animals. No riches, wealth, comfort or ease of the material world is equal to the wealth of a bird; all the areas of these plains and mountains are its dwelling, and all the seeds and harvests are its food and wealth, and all the lands, villages, meadows, pastures, forests and wildernesses are its possessions. Now, which is the richer, this bird, or the most wealthy man? for no matter how many seeds it may take or bestow, its wealth does not decrease. Then it is clear that the honor and exaltation of man must be something more than material riches. Material comforts are only a branch, but the root of the exaltation of man is the good attributes and virtues which are the adornments of his reality. These are the divine appearances, the heavenly bounties, the sublime emotions, the love and knowledge of God; universal wisdom, intellectual perception, scientific discoveries, justice, equity, truthfulness, benevolence, natural courage and innate fortitude; the respect for rights and the keeping of agreements and covenants; rectitude in all circumstances; serving the truth under all conditions; the sacrifice of one’s life for the good of all people; kindness and esteem for all nations; obedience to the teachings of God; service in the Divine Kingdom; the guidance of the people, and the education of the nations and races. This is the prosperity of the human world! This is the exaltation of man in the world! This is eternal life and heavenly honor!" According to Islamic tradition, when we die, we awake from a dream, and soon realise that the condition we are now in (after death) is in actuality, reality.... Food for thought... Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break. .....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay! |
|||||||||
|
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2013-04-14 19:49, tommy wrote: The notions of coincidence and its relative causality are dependent other notions including the observer, that observer impugning a relationship between what they perceived, expectations... then there's the language matter of framing a concept versus creating a concept; abracadabra -> hocuspocus? IE the thing becomes real because it was described - and then perceived by others based upon their contact with the description. The last bit is the magical contagion notion brought into language and perception.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
|
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
|
If only one apple fell upwards and be the exception to the rule, it would prove my claim that it was all a coincidence wouldn't it?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
|||||||||
| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » On the locus of consciousness (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
| Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4~5~6~7 [Next] | ||||||||||
Posted: Apr 12, 2013 11:56 pm 
| [ Top of Page ] |
|
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.13 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
|
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < 
|