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fonda57
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This is so very sad.

Not a good time to point fingers, though. Kevin did what he did and nobody knows why for sure.


Peace on you, Kevin.
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Poof-Daddy
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Quote:
On 2013-04-13 13:48, Lawrens Godon wrote:
So sad to hear that... just after reading the now deleted post, I rushed on FB to see and try to contact some Kevin's family member.. I understand some of his friends reacted and tried to contact him... but too late.

I also believe some member on this forum can be very ashamed now.


I am sure it was not the fault of 1 post ( or any posts for that matter ) he has had problems for years, probably most of his life. It saddens me that he took his own life but if he is the kind of person who would go through with that, it was only a matter of time before it would have happened anyway and for " whatever" reason. I talked to him through PM a few times, gave him my home phone and just recently my cell phone. I was very open with him about the depression problems I am going through with cancer and although he asked for my number, he never reached out and I told him he could call 24/7 as I am home alone most days and have a really messed up sleep schedule so I am up late most nights. He also said something in his "goodby post" about another forum attacking him. I have no idea which forum that would be as I am only on this one or what his forum name was ( although his posts would probably give that away).

So the blame, I am sorry to say, is all on him. Suicide is often called a selfish and cowardly act, I don't believe either. I think it is a last and final resort for someone with a lot of problems to end their perceived suffering. People do it and leave the ones they leave behind to pick up the pieces and try to figure out what they could have done differently to prevent it - when the fact is they couldn't . They only could have prolonged it.i really don't think it was 1 person pushing him over the edge when there were at least 10 people holding him back.
Cancer Sux - It is time to find a Cure

Don't spend so much time trying not to die that you forget how to live - H's wife to H on CSI Miami (paraphrased).






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tomsk192
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What is "perceived suffering"?
Hare
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Hiding Kevin's suicide note and saying things like "he would have done this no matter what we said to him", strikes me as an uncaring and selfish attitude.

We should at the very least all try and learn from what happened. If we pretend it was inevitable, that we had no influence on Kevin's life, make believe it never happened, we ought to acquire a one way ticket to hell.

The board moderators ought to stand up and post a response, along with Kevin's note...once they determine for certain that this actually did occur.

People see the Magic Café as a place to escape the real world, I suppose, and don't want the responsibilities of life to intrude here, but they have. If nothing else, we ought to reflect on how what we say here to others sometimes results in a meaningful impact on other's lives.

This is a place of Dreams for younger folk interested in magic. It's a spot where actual working magician's gather. Each of us, amateur and pro, need to realize that our words matter, that we make differences in peoples lives for good or ill. Nothing like this existed when I was a young man, and I can only imagine how it might have felt to me to have a place like this to visit that dealt with an art form I loved.

It might appropriate to start a section of the Magic Café dedicated to Kevin, which supported real goals towards professional status for youngsters interested in being magicians that focused on positive feedback and steered clear of how awful a profession it is to succeed in. Maybe include a place where donations could be made to help young magicians who had little get a start.

The truth is, that with support and nurturing, people can succeed at their dreams. The truth is, that discouragement and slapping people in the face with what we might see as "reality" is almost never a productive thing. Human beings can surmount mountainous obstacles with tenacity and a love for what they are doing.

We ought to acknowledge this, and this is the perfect time to make such an effort. I would be happy to donate to such a cause via Paypal, in memory of Kevin. I am very sorry I did not talk to him more. I feel guilt, and I admit it.
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gdw
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Quote:
On 2013-04-13 13:48, Lawrens Godon wrote:
So sad to hear that... just after reading the now deleted post, I rushed on FB to see and try to contact some Kevin's family member.. I understand some of his friends reacted and tried to contact him... but too late.

I also believe some member on this forum can be very ashamed now.


I'd love to know why the original post/thread was deleted.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Lawrens Godon
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Poof-Daddy, I'm not saying that someone should be held responsible for "pushing him over the edge".
All I say is I know what I've read in response to his last (deleted) post, and this makes me sick.
Poof-Daddy
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Quote:
On 2013-04-13 14:51, Lawrens Godon wrote:
Poof-Daddy, I'm not saying that someone should be held responsible for "pushing him over the edge".
All I say is I know what I've read in response to his last (deleted) post, and this makes me sick.


I know you weren't saying that (but I used you post because some people are thinking that) I read his deleted post also, even the 1 reply at the time that said "this would be a good time to start a hanging coins thread" or something very close to that. I simply ignored it and figured if he didn't call me, I would PM him today when he felt better. His post said he tried and the support broke but he was gonna try again and I didn't believe he would, I figured he was trying to make enough noise that someone would hear him and send him to the hospital for treatment ( a cry for help rather than an actual attempt )

Nothing meant towards you Lawrens.
Cancer Sux - It is time to find a Cure

Don't spend so much time trying not to die that you forget how to live - H's wife to H on CSI Miami (paraphrased).






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jazzy snazzy
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Very sad to hear this.
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Dr_J_Ayala
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Quote:
On 2013-04-13 14:51, Lawrens Godon wrote:
All I say is I know what I've read in response to his last (deleted) post, and this makes me sick.


I concur. There are certain things that could have been attempted that were not, and I will leave it at that.
Michael Rubinstein
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I have had several private conversations with Kevin, and sent him a set out my dvds along with a very personal note about the hurt that can be given to those you love by this type of act. As a father of a boy his age, this hits me very personally. Kevin told me how grateful he was, and that he showed my note to his mom. The reason I mention this is because he was getting help at home and had his own group of people who cared for him as best they can. No one here did anything wrong or caused Kevin to do this. Kevin had his demons and sadness, and this was not his first attempt. It is easy to think about what else we as a group could have done, but the truth is that people by his side were trying as best as they could. And ultimately they couldn't stop this. I send my deepest sympathies out to his loving family, RIP Kevin, your love of magic showed through all of your posts. You will be missed.
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Zombie Magic
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Quote:
On 2013-04-13 10:41, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Ive heard that it is too late. Nice work, Caf�, deleting that thread. It was his cry for help. Well done. You ***s.


Kevin posted a note on the Café about what he was going to do? I wonder if anything could have been to get him help?

Such sad news about Kevin.
Mb217
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Yes, and I am still in shock as to all this. Smile

And that the forum monitors deleted his post is something they will scramble not to engage here. Morally, they drop the ball and when push came to shove, they didn't live by their own credo here..."Magicians Helping Magicians." They sure didn't help Fish, they didn't even try, they just deleted his post as, I guess - Inappropriate. How callous.

How could someone have read something like that and just completely disconnect from humanity...Not answer such a final call for help??? It's sorta like watching a small child run out into the middle of a busy street and not go after him because he's not your child. Disgusting!
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tomsk192
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Quote:
On 2013-04-13 19:34, Zombie Magic wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-04-13 10:41, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Ive heard that it is too late. Nice work, Caf�, deleting that thread. It was his cry for help. Well done. You ***s.


Kevin posted a note on the Café about what he was going to do? I wonder if anything could have been to get him help?

Such sad news about Kevin.


He also posted on Facebook. A friend swiftly called the emergency services, who attempted to save his life.

Incidentally, leading up to this event, Kevin was told on this forum to "stop whining", "stop crying" and to "grow up."
Zombie Magic
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Quote:
On 2013-04-13 19:49, tomsk192 wrote:

Incidentally, leading up to this event, Kevin was told on this forum to "stop whining", "stop crying" and to "grow up."


I think anyone reading his posts for some time could tell kevin was fragile, had self esteem issues.

This is a sad time for his family.
tomsk192
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Indeed it is.
Poof-Daddy
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Quote:
On 2013-04-13 19:34, Zombie Magic wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-04-13 10:41, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Ive heard that it is too late. Nice work, Caf�, deleting that thread. It was his cry for help. Well done. You ***s.


Kevin posted a note on the Café about what he was going to do? I wonder if anything could have been to get him help?

Such sad news about Kevin.


He posted a post on this forum titled goodby I love you all - late last night, early this morning, I can't remember, I went to bed early and woke to go to the rest room and popped on my iPad for a sec. He said he tried to hang himself but the support broke but he was going to do it again.

There was one response that said looks like a good time to start a thread on hanging coins then. Or something to that effect. I didn't reply to it because I a) didn't think he was really going through with it. And b) I know you must choose your words and how you put them carefully with him and I generally do.

Anyway, that was what I saw of the deleted post. But my question is... Did the mods do nothing? How do we know this? Just because they deleted it (and in my opinion it should have been) doesn't mean behind the screens they did nothing. And if they didn't is it really their responsibility ? Is Facebook also to blame here along with the mods? I am sure the people at Facebook do absolutely NOTHING about the hundreds of suicidal goodby's posted every day. Someone locally to him did call the police and nothing could be done. The rescue people couldn't revive him according to his mother on his Facebook page.

Anyway, I hope he found a peaceful place and his parents and loved ones recover knowing that it wasn't their fault.
Cancer Sux - It is time to find a Cure

Don't spend so much time trying not to die that you forget how to live - H's wife to H on CSI Miami (paraphrased).






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Zombie Magic
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The news is tragic. Hearing that someone made light of it, is hard to believe. The thread was deleted by someone with authority, did they do anything to help? If they didn't have a contact, they should have sent out a PM notice to all members, in hopes someone knew Kevin or someone in his family.. They send it for ads for decks of cards, so it could easily have been sent out.

I think I read somewhere on the Café that bad things happen when good people do nothing. Anyone know who said that on the Café?
gdw
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Quote:
On 2013-04-13 19:00, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
I have had several private conversations with Kevin, and sent him a set out my dvds along with a very personal note about the hurt that can be given to those you love by this type of act. As a father of a boy his age, this hits me very personally. Kevin told me how grateful he was, and that he showed my note to his mom. The reason I mention this is because he was getting help at home and had his own group of people who cared for him as best they can. No one here did anything wrong or caused Kevin to do this. Kevin had his demons and sadness, and this was not his first attempt. It is easy to think about what else we as a group could have done, but the truth is that people by his side were trying as best as they could. And ultimately they couldn't stop this. I send my deepest sympathies out to his loving family, RIP Kevin, your love of magic showed through all of your posts. You will be missed.


Very true, none of use, as individuals, caused anything, or should, could have, would have.

Quote:
On 2013-04-13 20:35, Poof-Daddy wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-04-13 19:34, Zombie Magic wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-04-13 10:41, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Ive heard that it is too late. Nice work, Caf�, deleting that thread. It was his cry for help. Well done. You ***s.


Kevin posted a note on the Café about what he was going to do? I wonder if anything could have been to get him help?

Such sad news about Kevin.


He posted a post on this forum titled goodby I love you all - late last night, early this morning, I can't remember, I went to bed early and woke to go to the rest room and popped on my iPad for a sec. He said he tried to hang himself but the support broke but he was going to do it again.

There was one response that said looks like a good time to start a thread on hanging coins then. Or something to that effect. I didn't reply to it because I a) didn't think he was really going through with it. And b) I know you must choose your words and how you put them carefully with him and I generally do.

Anyway, that was what I saw of the deleted post. But my question is... Did the mods do nothing? How do we know this? Just because they deleted it (and in my opinion it should have been) doesn't mean behind the screens they did nothing. And if they didn't is it really their responsibility ? Is Facebook also to blame here along with the mods? I am sure the people at Facebook do absolutely NOTHING about the hundreds of suicidal goodby's posted every day. Someone locally to him did call the police and nothing could be done. The rescue people couldn't revive him according to his mother on his Facebook page.

Anyway, I hope he found a peaceful place and his parents and loved ones recover knowing that it wasn't their fault.


It's curious that he would have come back on here to post after a failed attempt, isn't it?
Many suicides are, tragically, accidents.

While it is true we may be jumping to conclusions regarding the staff here doing nothing. We don't know what they did, or didn't do off line.
I don't know if the mods should have deleted it. I don't see how that would help anything.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
cablerock
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Quote:
On 2013-04-13 19:49, tomsk192 wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-04-13 19:34, Zombie Magic wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-04-13 10:41, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Ive heard that it is too late. Nice work, Caf�, deleting that thread. It was his cry for help. Well done. You ***s.


Kevin posted a note on the Café about what he was going to do? I wonder if anything could have been to get him help?

Such sad news about Kevin.


He also posted on Facebook. A friend swiftly called the emergency services, who attempted to save his life.

Incidentally, leading up to this event, Kevin was told on this forum to "stop whining", "stop crying" and to "grow up."


I'm just going to say it. I am having a problem with this sort of blame casting that has been going on towards Octopus Sun. I think that it is really messed up. I know nobody has mentioned his name about it, but I've seen several posts eluding to this, and it really upsets me.

I agree that he can be a bit harsh with his words, but one can not expect every person to edit themselves to account for other person's feelings or beliefs. He didn't do anything wrong, and he certainly is not to blame for what happened. Not even a bit. As most of you have probably seen, Octopus Sun only said what everybody else was too polite and nice to say, which several people mentioned after his post. Though it was hard to hear, it was indeed constructive criticism, which any performer in the world is going to hear a million times worse if they actually get into the entertainment business.

One of the lessons I have learned in life is that there will be people like Octopus Sun who straight up tell it like they see it, regardless of the fact that they are may be insensitive to other peoples feelings. I feel that people like O.S. are a blessing, and you can more in minutes from people like him than you could in months with other people. Also, on this note, keep in mind you don't have to agree with the things that anybody says, and what you learn may not necessarily reflect their positions. "What Peter says about Paul tells more about Peter than Paul".

I hope I didn't offend anybody, but I just had to speak my mind about this one.
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