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Poof-Daddy
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I'm kind of surprised the mods haven't deleted this thread since they were so quick to delete the other. I can only assume the other was deleted following protocol but they are letting this one go for now so people can have a chance to grieve ( in the Internet way) . And as far as discussing it after the fact, Kevin was pretty open about some of his problems in past posts so nothing is really being revealed here that wasn't already out there (so to speak) and yes, awareness is needed. We all live in this sit at home on the computer world and communicate through forums, Facebook and Twitter and sometimes forget how bad the world around us can be.
Cancer Sux - It is time to find a Cure

Don't spend so much time trying not to die that you forget how to live - H's wife to H on CSI Miami (paraphrased).






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magicalaurie
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I think people mostly forget how good the world can be.
"Every thought you think, word you speak, and action you take proceeds from either love or fear. Peace and upset, innocence and guilt, healing and illness all spring from that one fundamental choice." Alan Cohen
gdw
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Quote:
On 2013-04-13 23:45, Poof-Daddy wrote:
I'm kind of surprised the mods haven't deleted this thread since they were so quick to delete the other. I can only assume the other was deleted following protocol but they are letting this one go for now so people can have a chance to grieve ( in the Internet way) . And as far as discussing it after the fact, Kevin was pretty open about some of his problems in past posts so nothing is really being revealed here that wasn't already out there (so to speak) and yes, awareness is needed. We all live in this sit at home on the computer world and communicate through forums, Facebook and Twitter and sometimes forget how bad the world around us can be.


That's true. Very true.

I wasn't thinking of the fact that he had been so open about it. I guess I was viewing it from the vantage that he hadn't been that open (or perhaps he felt like he was confiding in friends,) and it may be bringing un-wanted attention to his family, or rather that his parents might not want people so publicly discussing their son's possible issues.

But yes, very much a valid point regarding awareness, but grieving as well.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2013-04-13 23:47, magicalaurie wrote:
I think people mostly forget how good the world can be.


“When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, ‘Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.’ To this day, especially in times of ‘disaster,’ I remember my mother’s words, and I am always comforted by realizing that there are still so many helpers - so many caring people in this world.” — Mister Rogers
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Poof-Daddy
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Quote:
On 2013-04-13 23:47, magicalaurie wrote:
I think people mostly forget how good the world can be.


True, it does go both ways - Good and Bad

And gdw, I grew up in Latrobe Pa where Mr Rogers is from and met him a couple times. The man was the exact same in person as he was on his show.
Cancer Sux - It is time to find a Cure

Don't spend so much time trying not to die that you forget how to live - H's wife to H on CSI Miami (paraphrased).






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gdw
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Quote:
On 2013-04-14 00:00, Poof-Daddy wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-04-13 23:47, magicalaurie wrote:
I think people mostly forget how good the world can be.


True, it does go both ways - Good and Bad

And gdw, I grew up in Latrobe Pa where Mr Rogers is from and met him a couple times. The man was the exact same in person as he was on his show.


Yes, from what I've heard, he was an incredibly earnest man.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
magicalaurie
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For the record, I don't blame Octopus Sun for Kevin's actions, how could I? No one here's qualified for such a task and I certainly don't want it. I was, however, angry about the tone he took with him. I'm sorry I didn't speak up sooner, because I certainly didn't agree and I think I should have let Kevin know it. His work with the muscle pass was very interesting and I think that could have and should have been emphasized in the thread.
"Every thought you think, word you speak, and action you take proceeds from either love or fear. Peace and upset, innocence and guilt, healing and illness all spring from that one fundamental choice." Alan Cohen
taiga
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I'm shocked!!
Stop asking!
I am the a**h**e who did the joke about "time to learn Hanging Coins".
I couldn't imagine that someone could spread that kind of personal problems on a site like Magic Café.
I really thought it was a bad joke made by someone craving for attention. I was upset by that, being myself involved once bye a member of my family who committed suicide when I was a teen. I have been the first to reply at his post and I am ready to assume my mistake. I'm ready to leave this community for ever if you desire so!
I just cannot tell you how sorry I am to have been part of that. Being the first, sometime is hard to face.

To finish, my thoughts are with all those who knew this man and his family!
takeachance
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Social media like this are not the place to discuss these issues for seriously ill persons. Your post did not cause the end result. Time for this forum to be deleted also in respect to the boys family. The Mods did the right thing, its a situation of ***ed if you do and ***ed if you don't.
tomsk192
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Certainly no specific blame should be attached to individuals on this forum. However, it would be reassuring to think that some may have learned something, and be big enough to recognise that so-called 'tough love' is inappropriate, at best, for severely depressed individuals.

The contrition seems to be coming mainly from the more gentle members of this forum.
Mb217
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I posted in the other string as to this "tough love vs. other love" stuff and I pretty much stand by that as to different people's serious approaches to responding to Fish. At that very time I was unaware of what had happened.

I really agree with cablerock and Fonda here as to any blame game going on here. All the woulda-coulda-shouldas are just that, after thoughts of what roads perhaps would've been a better way. In that, if you think think you coulda done something more than you did, then blame yourself as you may place blame toward others. Though, I don't think you're to blame either in all of this but to each his own.

I agree that pretty much most here were not prepared to deal with this kind of thing, a more resident professional care was always needed. Each person gave from who they are. Now, of course, everyone is not happy with other people's way as to things, just like everyone doesn't agree as to the great gun debate in the U.S., even after the horrific tragedy of those little kids in Newtown. :/

It's a great conundrum here because while Fish did have outside help for his issues, they were missing an important element - Magic. Magic drew Fish here and held him steady as it could and he let it. Only we were ill-prepared on this end as well to to confront the darker chasms he was traveling. We seemed to be a bit of the light up ahead he kept moving towards in interest...Just maybe we could magically present a door out of his dark world. I don't know, I'm just sayin'. To me, we certainly tried.

We are people and we think and do things differently as to our caring and instruction regarding life for ourselves and as to others. And look, boys have ****ing matches, that's what we do, been doing since the beginning of time and it has helped build this world...and destroy it some, I suppose. That some don't agree with these "ways" is their prerogative but it is an old prerogative that traditionally has changed little if much of anything. And I would think that from this side of the greatest aisle there is, we have some of the same sorta questions about the thinking and approach from the other side as to some of the things they do and how they think, and they care about as much as we do. It don't make us wrong or them, it just shows what seems to be an innate difference in us that usually then demands deeper thinking toward needed compromise of the two sides. Often times, one side can't do it without the other side resenting the action taken. Typically blame enters, it's what we do...All of us in one way or another through our reflexive opinions begin to judge the situation. Semantically, we are doing that pretty much now.

Y'know, at one time we used to blame the person committing such an act, how crazy was that? With time, as we often do, we came to understand better as to the darkness some of us travel without much hope. I am happy to say that we have changed our approach and thinking somewhat for the better, but sh*t still happens and we have a lot more to learn it seems. Anyway, blame who you will, a little or a lot, until we tire of blaming and blame no more, or something like that.

In the meantime, my prayers are with Kevin's family, and for mercy on his soul toward a greater peace for him now and forever.
*Check out my latest: MBs Morgan w/ BONUS: Destiny, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

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gdw
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Quote:
On 2013-04-14 02:50, taiga wrote:
I'm shocked!!
Stop asking!
I am the a**h**e who did the joke about "time to learn Hanging Coins".
I couldn't imagine that someone could spread that kind of personal problems on a site like Magic Café.
I really thought it was a bad joke made by someone craving for attention. I was upset by that, being myself involved once bye a member of my family who committed suicide when I was a teen. I have been the first to reply at his post and I am ready to assume my mistake. I'm ready to leave this community for ever if you desire so!
I just cannot tell you how sorry I am to have been part of that. Being the first, sometime is hard to face.

To finish, my thoughts are with all those who knew this man and his family!


As mentioned, I don't think anyone here can really be blamed for anything.
It is big of you to step up.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Dr Spektor
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http://metro.co.uk/2008/11/21/bodybuilde......-170682/

This thread should not be erased IMHO

Not hiding or erasing the fact mental health issues are common may one day help fight the stigma around them - I mean this thread here.

This is tragic - and it's a growing phenomena thanks to the ubiquity of social media

Being a person who treats people for such conditions, it is unlikely at the point a person is actively posting about actively killing themselves that much can be done unless you know who the person is this location etc and even then interventions are difficult

Most people who do this are suffering from a preexisting condition.... That often gets overlooked or not dealt with for many reasons

As for erasing the thread with the suicide note.... I don't think there is a clear answer on what is right in these situations - there is the phenomena of copycats which is why newspapers etc have a code not to report details if subway suicides etc.... As it can accidentally encourage those on the edge to do a similar act. Really. There are a lot of these occurring now.

In the end it is tragic and I think a thread conducted in allowing people to talk about this to help our magic community is a good thing....

Looking for reasons that are easy to understand is normal - that is how our magic perf works too. Truth is usually more complex ie biological conditions and genetics combined with psychological factors arising from coping with them then mixed with social interactions... In a 21 century culture of techno dehumanisation.... There the truth lies usually.

My condolences to the family and those who knew him.

I have no idea who kevin is and wasn't part of any discussions but I wanted to say let this event try to help people learn from for the future - this wont be the last time of colleagues might be suffering too.
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
Fire Starter
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Oh dear very tragic news,my heart goes out to his family and friends RIP Kevin.
gdw
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On 2013-04-14 07:57, Dr Spektor wrote:
http://metro.co.uk/2008/11/21/bodybuilde......-170682/

This thread should not be erased IMHO

Not hiding or erasing the fact mental health issues are common may one day help fight the stigma around them - I mean this thread here.

This is tragic - and it's a growing phenomena thanks to the ubiquity of social media

Being a person who treats people for such conditions, it is unlikely at the point a person is actively posting about actively killing themselves that much can be done unless you know who the person is this location etc and even then interventions are difficult

Most people who do this are suffering from a preexisting condition.... That often gets overlooked or not dealt with for many reasons

As for erasing the thread with the suicide note.... I don't think there is a clear answer on what is right in these situations - there is the phenomena of copycats which is why newspapers etc have a code not to report details if subway suicides etc.... As it can accidentally encourage those on the edge to do a similar act. Really. There are a lot of these occurring now.

In the end it is tragic and I think a thread conducted in allowing people to talk about this to help our magic community is a good thing....

Looking for reasons that are easy to understand is normal - that is how our magic perf works too. Truth is usually more complex ie biological conditions and genetics combined with psychological factors arising from coping with them then mixed with social interactions... In a 21 century culture of techno dehumanisation.... There the truth lies usually.

My condolences to the family and those who knew him.

I have no idea who kevin is and wasn't part of any discussions but I wanted to say let this event try to help people learn from for the future - this wont be the last time of colleagues might be suffering too.


Yes, and, assuming they are aware of it, I'm going to thank the Café staff for allowing this thread to continue.
Plenty of emotionally fueled posts over the past 2 days, mine included.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
itlust
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This is very sad news ...
Octopus Sun
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I'm having serious issues.
I did nothing wrong, said nothing wrong.

I read the post STFS wrote and I monitored it up to it's
deletion. I never posted a reply to that deleted as has been insinuated by Laurie
placing the blame on me, then she tries to justify herself by saying she wasn't.
She has no reading comprehension this we know by her self indulgent posting
without seriously investigating.

That thread degenerated into muck and mire as all of STSF threads...
that's what set him off over the edge, the deletion of his attention wanting thread.

#1 Not one person here understands STSF post and it's correct content.
STSF came in with his usual rant, I tend to avoid his threads since
he does just that rant on and on.

When I read that thread I knew something was wrong.
I went to his FB page read his threats on FB and I CALLED THE CHANDLER POLICE DEPT.

I talked with the shift supervisor at 4am pacific time...she told me
that they were in contact with Kevin's parents and something serious indeed
had happened. She could not tell me anything more and that if we want info
we need to contact Kevin's parents.

I explained to her about his post on the Café' and FB
She said there is nothing that we can do, and the parents are taking care of
everything. She reiterated, Kevin did preform and complete his actions of self destruction.

#2 In the last 2yrs STSF has threatened suicide here and on several
other forums constantly holding the users and those forms hostage
with his threats of bodily harm.

Kevin did not only post on the Café" people, he was a member at coin collector's forum, martial arts forums and more
he made the same posts on all forums, like he was cutting and pasting them.

For attention is why he did this, because of his fear of rejection.

Kevin set himself up for rejection.

People, you need to stand back, drop the bias no matter how you feel and look at the Correct Situation here.

The Café' is not the only place he hung out as all of you want to believe.


FU Laurie. You have no right to blame me or anyone else.
You have no f'n reading comprehension what so ever, you have proven this fact at least a dozen times.
you straight up twist everything people say to fit your fantasy world.

I never once said anything wrong to Kevin.
Did you read his post I was responding to?
No you didn't, and if you did you would see I was correct in my response to his post.

Kevin's thread was not a cry for help or a suicide note
it was another of his FU rant's, which he titled "I love you"
He was threatening the Café' again as he always has in the past.

How can one take someone serious when they cry wolf for 3yrs every
2months right on key. Saying I'm going to kill myself
Kevin straight up refused his meds and treatment in AZ

AZ has messed up mental health laws...any patient over 18 no matter how messed up in their head
makes their own decision to receive AZ State help or not. no matter if their decision is correct or not.
If they choose to receive the help funding assistance you must follows very specific guidelines and rules.
If they refuse to follow the rules AZ tosses the patients to the streets.

This is what happened to Kevin, he told us in his past post...
How many of you read and comprehend this when he tells us this stuff...not Laurie.

Kevin was kicked out of the system 2 weeks or so ago because he decided to refuse the treatments
He decided to not follow the rules.
His parents could only let him come home, no other choice.

One last thing you people never consider

and that's the Children here on the Café'

Our kids have no need to read or comprehend the crap Kevin brought here or to other forums
Kevin had issues and depression was not one of them, and that's a fact.
He had serious Mental issues no one here knew about, things he kept hidden.
Talk with his Parents if you have the inner fortitude.

This is why the Mods deleted that bs thread.

No you don't you all just want to point the finger

Ashamed No I am not, but I feel hurt inside to know I may have caused him
to give up instead of go on to bigger things.

I don't feel responsible, but because of Laurie and others here, I do have a twinge of disrespect for her and them because of their
childish finger wagging without knowing or even reading the original thread

whose the bad person people here...

only one and that was Kevin for placing the forum in this situation...think about the other forums he posted this same thing and how they must all be feeling going through, blaming each other for this kids BS.

no one else
Dougini
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Octopus Sun, you are not to blame. I understand exactly what you said to him. There is NO right or wrong thing here. We all had our own ways of dealing with him, and OS, so did you. Being angry at each other is not the answer.

Agree or disagree, we are all affected. I'm angry right now at Kevin. Furious! Am I right to be angry? I don't know. I just am. To me, suicide is a cowardly, selfish act. I know. I have attempted it twice in my life. The difference? I turned to God. Kevin was not interested in that. We briefly talked about it.

I didn't sleep well last night. I did not know Kevin that well. This bothers me more than it should. I guess it hits close to home. My mother committed suicide right in front of me at 13. That's enough right there for one lifetime...

Doug
Zombie Magic
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This morning at services, we offered prayers for Kevin, his family and also for the Magic Café members and staff.

I think many of us have had a family member/close friend that did what Kevin did. It's tragic, sad and filled with emotions we probably don't have the proper word(s) to describe. The deep pain Kevin was in, is gone now. He's somewhere else, doing things we couldn't comprehend. Let's celebrate his life and the people he touched.

Hey, babies were born today!

And when I die, and when I'm gone
There'll be one child born
In this world to carry on, to carry on
bowers
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Right Kevin did this to himself.He has been on a
self-destruct path for a long time going.He tryed his
best to get people to feel sorry for him constantly
wanting pity from whoever he could get it from.I really
hate a life was taken But Kevin has been against Kevin
his whole life.And it finally consumed him.there has been
a lot of new people coming in and pointing fingers at whose
to blame on this thread.I sure didn't hear from them when
all this posting from Kevin was going own.I called these people
hindsight ones always seemingly to know what should have been done
after the fact.
Todd
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