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Mb217
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Quote:
On 2013-04-14 10:13, Octopus Sun wrote:
I'm having serious issues.
I did nothing wrong, said nothing wrong.

I read the post STFS wrote and I monitored it up to it's
deletion. I never posted a reply to that deleted as has been insinuated by Laurie
placing the blame on me, then she tries to justify herself by saying she wasn't.
She has no reading comprehension this we know by her self indulgent posting
without seriously investigating.

That thread degenerated into muck and mire as all of STSF threads...
that's what set him off over the edge, the deletion of his attention wanting thread.

#1 Not one person here understands STSF post and it's correct content.
STSF came in with his usual rant, I tend to avoid his threads since
he does just that rant on and on.

When I read that thread I knew something was wrong.
I went to his FB page read his threats on FB and I CALLED THE CHANDLER POLICE DEPT.

I talked with the shift supervisor at 4am pacific time...she told me
that they were in contact with Kevin's parents and something serious indeed
had happened. She could not tell me anything more and that if we want info
we need to contact Kevin's parents.

I explained to her about his post on the Café' and FB
She said there is nothing that we can do, and the parents are taking care of
everything. She reiterated, Kevin did preform and complete his actions of self destruction.

#2 In the last 2yrs STSF has threatened suicide here and on several
other forums constantly holding the users and those forms hostage
with his threats of bodily harm.

Kevin did not only post on the Café" people, he was a member at coin collector's forum, martial arts forums and more
he made the same posts on all forums, like he was cutting and pasting them.

For attention is why he did this, because of his fear of rejection.

Kevin set himself up for rejection.

People, you need to stand back, drop the bias no matter how you feel and look at the Correct Situation here.

The Café' is not the only place he hung out as all of you want to believe.


FU Laurie. You have no right to blame me or anyone else.
You have no f'n reading comprehension what so ever, you have proven this fact at least a dozen times.
you straight up twist everything people say to fit your fantasy world.

I never once said anything wrong to Kevin.
Did you read his post I was responding to?
No you didn't, and if you did you would see I was correct in my response to his post.

Kevin's thread was not a cry for help or a suicide note
it was another of his FU rant's, which he titled "I love you"
He was threatening the Café' again as he always has in the past.

How can one take someone serious when they cry wolf for 3yrs every
2months right on key. Saying I'm going to kill myself
Kevin straight up refused his meds and treatment in AZ

AZ has messed up mental health laws...any patient over 18 no matter how messed up in their head
makes their own decision to receive AZ State help or not. no matter if their decision is correct or not.
If they choose to receive the help funding assistance you must follows very specific guidelines and rules.
If they refuse to follow the rules AZ tosses the patients to the streets.

This is what happened to Kevin, he told us in his past post...
How many of you read and comprehend this when he tells us this stuff...not Laurie.

Kevin was kicked out of the system 2 weeks or so ago because he decided to refuse the treatments
He decided to not follow the rules.
His parents could only let him come home, no other choice.

One last thing you people never consider

and that's the Children here on the Café'

Our kids have no need to read or comprehend the crap Kevin brought here or to other forums
Kevin had issues and depression was not one of them, and that's a fact.
He had serious Mental issues no one here knew about, things he kept hidden.
Talk with his Parents if you have the inner fortitude.

This is why the Mods deleted that bs thread.

No you don't you all just want to point the finger

Ashamed No I am not, but I feel hurt inside to know I may have caused him
to give up instead of go on to bigger things.

I don't feel responsible, but because of Laurie and others here, I do have a twinge of disrespect for her and them because of their
childish finger wagging without knowing or even reading the original thread

whose the bad person people here...

only one and that was Kevin for placing the forum in this situation...think about the other forums he posted this same thing and how they must all be feeling going through, blaming each other for this kids BS.

no one else


You did nothing wrong OS, not sure how it all came down that way, but then again. Information is power, and clearly you did a lot more than most did to help Fish in your own way, which is the only way you could've done it, just like any of the rest of us doing it our way, whichever way that is. Clearly you cared about Kevin, enough to reach as far as you did. I'm really proud of your efforts to help in his darkest time of need. Good show, my friend.
*Check out my latest: MBs Morgan w/ BONUS: Destiny, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
vampiro
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This is very, very sad. But this is not a time to blame people. You see, a lot of us had no idea that Kevin had serious mental problems.
An internet discussion is not the place for someone with mental problems, much less encouraging someone like this to compete. this is just asking for rejection and more pain.

Have any of you had to deal with serious mental disease close up? My sister had bulimia--seriously--like Kevin (from one of his posts online). Kevin had it seriously. this kind of thing is, when it is severe, is like a living suicide attempt, which is why people with this problem are in and out of mental clinics/hospitals. My family was fortunate--my sister got well over decades and is now a psychiatrist. But it would have been horrible if one of her suicide attempts would have succeeded.

On the surface, it may seem that people's posts sent Kevin over the edge, but he was already suicidal. Bulimia and repetitive suicide attempts are like a living death. These people (like my family member)were looking for any reason to call it quits. you have to take this into account, and don't blame people--that is really irresponsible. The truth is, if you have known a suicidal person with serious mental disease, it is a mystery why they keep trying suicide. Often these events have very little to do with the events around them. It is often not related to what is going on in the real world. So don't be a jerk and blame someone--this was much more serious than saying something someone didn't like. The truth is, someone with serious mental issues should not be on an internet chat site of any type--they need family and professional help.

So, here's to you, Kevin, you were brilliant, caring, and mixed up. I wish I could have been a friend.
I trust that God is taking care of you, in a better place. Thanks to the people who tried to help. But no more blaming. this was a serious mental issue, beyond the immediate circumstances.

In the future, let's try to get Kevins off of internet sites, which are not good for them. they are bound to only get hurt and disappointed on any chat site. At the same time, we all need to resolve, together, to love the Kevins we meet in the future, by God's grace.
scott
Dick Oslund
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Thank you Scott. I've been trying to think of a way to express my sentiments, and you have been a big help. I agree with your thoughts.
Dick
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magicalaurie
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Quote:
On 2013-04-14 10:13, Octopus Sun wrote:


FU Laurie. You have no right to blame me or anyone else.



Who said I did? Attack my reading comprehension all you like- that and plenty of other things you liberally spew are patently false, and I'm as free as anyone here to say so.
"Every thought you think, word you speak, and action you take proceeds from either love or fear. Peace and upset, innocence and guilt, healing and illness all spring from that one fundamental choice." Alan Cohen
bowers
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Very well put Scott.
Todd
magicalaurie
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Quote:
On 2013-04-14 10:13, Octopus Sun wrote:

I never posted a reply to that deleted as has been insinuated by Laurie



I insinuated no such thing. I referred to the previous thread Kevin posted. You haven't read my comments, and those who have can see that. It's this kind of misrepresentation myself and others take issue with you on and I, for one, would appreciate it if yourself and those who've jumped so quickly to your defense would look a little more closely.

My goodness, you really believe you're the only person who knew Kevin spoke out this way on other forums? It wasn't a secret- we're aware, I'm aware, he said it himself, here.

One thing I'm surprised most here haven't stated that's been taught for ages is that when someone says they're suicidal and going to kill themselves, #1 take it seriously EVERY time.

You're credibility's at an all time low when you start with the "I never once" said or did anything wrong stuff and we all know it. None of us are capable of living up to that, including you, OS.
"Every thought you think, word you speak, and action you take proceeds from either love or fear. Peace and upset, innocence and guilt, healing and illness all spring from that one fundamental choice." Alan Cohen
gdw
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Suicide CAN be a cowardly and selfish act, that doesn't mean it always is.

The pain it causes others can be horrendous, and yes, Kevin killed HIMSELF, however, to push it aside as "selfish and cowardly" can be spitting on the pain and suffering an individual was going through.

Not saying anything about the criticism cast at Kevin by OS here, just commenting on the above.
As I, and many others have said, there is no point in playing would have, could have, should have, directed at others, or our selves, but that doesn't mean we can't, or should not, evaluate our own actions.

We don't always fully know to whom we are speaking. OS, from what I gather, and that is admittedly limited, and far from fully informed, so take it for whatever it is, but it sounds like depression absolutely was an issue, especially if he was constantly seeking approval, and fearing rejection.
Even if depression was not an issue, clearly other things were, enough to lead up to such a tragic end.

OS, you seem to admit you were aware of STFS having issues, and claim you "understood" what he was doing with "attention seeking" threads. If so, perhaps harsh criticism was not the best tact? Again, not saying there is ANY blame for what happened. Nothing any individual said, or did, lead directly to what happened. You can't even say there was a straw that broke the camel's back. The camel's back is usually already broken in times like these.
Completely aside from that, if you knew, as you seem to be implying (I could be misunderstanding) that there were issues, again, completely irrespective of suicide, why would harsh criticism have seemed like a helpful thing?

Please, take this for what it is, a sincere question.
There is really no blame to cast amongst those here.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
magicalaurie
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Those who think suicide is cowardly had ought to think it through a little further, I think.
"Every thought you think, word you speak, and action you take proceeds from either love or fear. Peace and upset, innocence and guilt, healing and illness all spring from that one fundamental choice." Alan Cohen
Zombie Magic
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All the threads I go to that Kevin posted in, there is Laurie posting positive encouragement to Kevin to follow his dream. Just kindness from her towards him.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......start=30

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......start=30

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......&start=0
Dougini
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Quote:
On 2013-04-14 14:44, magicalaurie wrote:
Suggesting Kevin shouldn't have been allowed on forums endorses the stigma he was living with every minute of every day. He was an asset to this place, not a tyrant, and we were lucky to have him, indeed.


Yes. We were. He WAS an asset. An inspiration. Made me look at myself a bit closer. Thank you Laurie! Smile That sure is a positive note!
tomsk192
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Thanks Zombie, that makes the point very well. Smile
J-Mac
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Wow... "The only bad person here is Kevin..." ....... "I'm angry at Kevin..."............ "Kevin did this to himself..."

I guess it's easy to just throw blame there. Not sure why anyone feels the need to jump in and blame anyone at all. It would be nice to just leave all "blame" completely out of here. I doubt it will go that way, but it would be nice.

Jim
gdw
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Not that I'm necessarily describing anyone here, but it seems like it is relevant to say this; many "bullies" almost never consider themselves bullies, nor what they do bullying. Kids will openly taunt and tease others, and then turn around and speak out against bullying.

In many ways, plenty of "bullying" isn't even intentional, that is, what is perceived by a person who feels they are being bullied, the person who was speaking/writing, may have even had absolutely no ill intent, and may even think they are helping.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
tomsk192
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Indeed, perhaps it follows that 'bullies' rarely think of others at all.
gdw
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Quote:
On 2013-04-14 15:54, J-Mac wrote:
Wow... "The only bad person here is Kevin..." ....... "I'm angry at Kevin..."............ "Kevin did this to himself..."

I guess it's easy to just throw blame there. Not sure why anyone feels the need to jump in and blame anyone at all. It would be nice to just leave all "blame" completely out of here. I doubt it will go that way, but it would be nice.

Jim


Anger is a natural process in grief, and it is a secondary emotion, usually stemming from other feelings one is having trouble processing/dealing with.

This is a hard situation to process. Obviously nothing compared to what Kevin was going through, nor what his family and close friends are now going through, but not easy none the less.

Unfortunate as it is, people are almost always looking for somewhere to direct blame, especially when they are experiencing something negative. Even in completely naturally occurring deaths, people have a need to put blame somewhere.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Dr Spektor
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Suicide is usually done as a viable step for those who feel all other options are gone and that living is so painful that death is a release i.e. it makes sense to that person because of the state of mind/perception he or she is in - often caused by conditions... usually most suicides are linked to having clinical depression, or having taken substances that can cause depression, with or without huge stressors....

It does not have to be seen as a cowardly act. Often people suffering with depression are trying to hang on day to day by a thread, heroically trying to find a reason to live from moment to moment.

Unless you suffer from such a condition yourselves, you will never fully understand - as depression is not normal sadness... its a truly abnormal mood state that is quite deadly.

Blaming a person who commits suicide just contributes to more stigma and often prevents people from reaching out - lest they get blamed for being "weak".. when in fact, the condition is often treatable if the right help is matched to the person in time... the metaphor is like saying its weak to have diabetes or high blood pressure. Depression is not a personality or a free choice for the majority of people (if any).

When faced with situations we have no control over - it is our knee jerk mind reaction to construct a reason or an explanation - often blaming the person because its easier than accepting the horrible truth about ambiguity and the nature of broken healthcare systems and our own responsibilities.

As I mentioned before, looking for explanations is a normative response to such a thing. I've had a few friends commit suicide over the years... and I bet a few of you have too because it actually is way more common than you may want to believe. I still am haunted with the "what if?" even though logically I know there was little to nothing anyone could have done.

Is there something we can do for the family? i.e. do something in terms of a letter of condolence? It helps to do something practical - even if it doesn't give an explanation. IMHO... a point person here who know him?
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
tomsk192
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Very well put, Dr.
Sean Giles
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Quote:
On 2013-04-14 10:13, Octopus Sun wrote:
I'm having serious issues.
I did nothing wrong, said nothing wrong.

I read the post STFS wrote and I monitored it up to it's
deletion. I never posted a reply to that deleted as has been insinuated by Laurie
placing the blame on me, then she tries to justify herself by saying she wasn't.
She has no reading comprehension this we know by her self indulgent posting
without seriously investigating.

That thread degenerated into muck and mire as all of STSF threads...
that's what set him off over the edge, the deletion of his attention wanting thread.

#1 Not one person here understands STSF post and it's correct content.
STSF came in with his usual rant, I tend to avoid his threads since
he does just that rant on and on.

When I read that thread I knew something was wrong.
I went to his FB page read his threats on FB and I CALLED THE CHANDLER POLICE DEPT.

I talked with the shift supervisor at 4am pacific time...she told me
that they were in contact with Kevin's parents and something serious indeed
had happened. She could not tell me anything more and that if we want info
we need to contact Kevin's parents.

I explained to her about his post on the Café' and FB
She said there is nothing that we can do, and the parents are taking care of
everything. She reiterated, Kevin did preform and complete his actions of self destruction.

#2 In the last 2yrs STSF has threatened suicide here and on several
other forums constantly holding the users and those forms hostage
with his threats of bodily harm.

Kevin did not only post on the Café" people, he was a member at coin collector's forum, martial arts forums and more
he made the same posts on all forums, like he was cutting and pasting them.

For attention is why he did this, because of his fear of rejection.

Kevin set himself up for rejection.

People, you need to stand back, drop the bias no matter how you feel and look at the Correct Situation here.

The Café' is not the only place he hung out as all of you want to believe.


FU Laurie. You have no right to blame me or anyone else.
You have no f'n reading comprehension what so ever, you have proven this fact at least a dozen times.
you straight up twist everything people say to fit your fantasy world.

I never once said anything wrong to Kevin.
Did you read his post I was responding to?
No you didn't, and if you did you would see I was correct in my response to his post.

Kevin's thread was not a cry for help or a suicide note
it was another of his FU rant's, which he titled "I love you"
He was threatening the Café' again as he always has in the past.

How can one take someone serious when they cry wolf for 3yrs every
2months right on key. Saying I'm going to kill myself
Kevin straight up refused his meds and treatment in AZ

AZ has messed up mental health laws...any patient over 18 no matter how messed up in their head
makes their own decision to receive AZ State help or not. no matter if their decision is correct or not.
If they choose to receive the help funding assistance you must follows very specific guidelines and rules.
If they refuse to follow the rules AZ tosses the patients to the streets.

This is what happened to Kevin, he told us in his past post...
How many of you read and comprehend this when he tells us this stuff...not Laurie.

Kevin was kicked out of the system 2 weeks or so ago because he decided to refuse the treatments
He decided to not follow the rules.
His parents could only let him come home, no other choice.

One last thing you people never consider

and that's the Children here on the Café'

Our kids have no need to read or comprehend the crap Kevin brought here or to other forums
Kevin had issues and depression was not one of them, and that's a fact.
He had serious Mental issues no one here knew about, things he kept hidden.
Talk with his Parents if you have the inner fortitude.

This is why the Mods deleted that bs thread.

No you don't you all just want to point the finger

Ashamed No I am not, but I feel hurt inside to know I may have caused him
to give up instead of go on to bigger things.

I don't feel responsible, but because of Laurie and others here, I do have a twinge of disrespect for her and them because of their
childish finger wagging without knowing or even reading the original thread

whose the bad person people here...

only one and that was Kevin for placing the forum in this situation...think about the other forums he posted this same thing and how they must all be feeling going through, blaming each other for this kids BS.

no one else


That's despicable dude. To speak about him in this way is shameful. What if his mum comes on here to read his posts and sees yours.
tomsk192
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Then she will think that Octopus Sun is an utter p***k.

(Or, at least, that was my conclusion, flawed as it is.)
Harv
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I know of two other people who decided to end their lives in the same manner as Kevin due to severe depression. They were both older but the result was still the same. Perhaps the mental health system need to be revamped. RIP Kevin and may your afterlife bring you the joy that this life couldn't.
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