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Unknown7777
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Hey,

I'm just starting out with this. I know that social networks are a great way to promote yourself. I have been thinking about putting pictures of myself on these social networking sites so people know I'm trustworthy and real. However I have always been taught it can potentially be dangerous to have picture of yourself online. So I ask are there actually any dangers?

Thanks,
Brad
T. Durden
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Dangerous how?

Unless you're talking about posting photos on 4Chan, or if you're involved in some sort of witness relocation program, you will probably be fine.

I think the warnings of danger on social networking sites are meant for like 13-year-old girls.
Nathan Tricky Allen
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JoshLondonMagic
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In 1993 this was a concern, but now anyone can find virtually any information about anyone at anytime. Promotions on social networks can be frustrating if you don't know what you're doing. I'd suggest you set up a LinkedIn, Twitter and Facebook account for yourself and start playing around with them so you can get a feel for what each do and which ones you like more.

Then, start looking into using social media for business.

Josh
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Unknown7777
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Yeah I do know what I'm doing haha. I was just wondering about the photos thing. I think it is because my mom was kinda paranoid as I was growing up. Thanks for the opinions:)
curtgunz
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I think the above discussions are assuming adults are the ones being marketed.

I think you are an adult. Am I right?

For minors I think the discussion is very different.
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Unknown7777
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Quote:
On 2013-04-13 16:55, curtgunz wrote:
I think the above discussions are assuming adults are the ones being marketed.

I think you are an adult. Am I right?

For minors I think the discussion is very different.

Care to elaborate?
Mindpro
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Quote:
On 2013-04-13 16:55, curtgunz wrote:
I think the above discussions are assuming adults are the ones being marketed.

I think you are an adult. Am I right?

For minors I think the discussion is very different.

For sure.
curtgunz
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Quote:
On 2013-04-13 17:47, Unknown7777 wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-04-13 16:55, curtgunz wrote:
I think the above discussions are assuming adults are the ones being marketed.

I think you are an adult. Am I right?

For minors I think the discussion is very different.

Care to elaborate?

If we have a very young magician (as we sometimes do) asking for advice I would not advise the same kind of marketing. I'd talk a lot more about having their parents help them and work with them when they talk to potential clients and such.

The question was basically about online safety. I have a whole different approach to that when I talk to my nine year old son and when I talk to my parents in their 80s.

They both need to be safe and careful but the reasons and the discussions are very different.
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Unknown7777
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Of course:) thanks for the clarification
Bob Sanders
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My personal experience with 54 years in the industry and being former owner of a booking and management agency and having had a personal manager and agents, I have very little confidence in any online marketing for bookings for live performances. The real bottom line is that talent buyers never see them. They have better methods available to them.

There are plenty of inquiries and they are interesting but they are not serious talent buyers. It is good for fans, hobbyists, and trick vendors. They count too. This old Marketing Professor is not sold on online marketing for bookings amounting to much more than entertainment for the webmaster. The thing we are really up against is that real talent buyers don't look! Why should they? They have systems that are more professional and effective.
Bob Sanders

Magic By Sander / The Amazed Wiz

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Mindpro
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Finally!....Someone here speaks the real truth. I see here, day in and day out, reading all of these things about search engine optimization, adwords, pay-per-clicks, web sites, Gigmasters, Gig Salad & Party Pop, Twitter and Facebook marketing, and on and on.

Bob speaks in such reality for the professional and even semi-professional performer. These are the truths if you are working professional markets. Other than on low-end consumer markets, talent buyers in many cases stay away from entertainers that heavily use these methods. It's like the old yellow pages when so many had ads there. Your best, most working professional performers did not for the reasons Bob speaks of regarding talent buyers and agents operating on these levels. How professionally are you perceived if you are in among all the others including amateurs, bottom-feeders and sub-level performers?

It so nice to hear someone speak this. So many today are spending waaay too much money on this online marketing and not really getting the returns they expect. Most will never admit to this. While it may have it's place as one single method of lead generation, if you are expecting or relying on direct bookings from this you may easily become disappointed.

Nice post Bob!
JoshLondonMagic
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I may not be the authority on talent buyers, but my little business is based on 1. Word of mouth and 2. Online marketing. I get a lot of new birthday party clients via Adwords and Facebook ads and they turn into word of mouth marketing machines for my show.

I agree with the above, if you're going after a large fee gig, online marketing won't be too much help

For my purposes (a simple birthday party, family, and school assembly performer) Adwords has been very kind to me.

I average 6-8 kid shows a weekend (usually taking a weekend off every other month) and a few school shows. If say 40% of my business comes from Adwords/online marketing.

Josh
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scottds80
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I think its a good idea to at least create a website which Google easily can find you, when someone searches for your name or "Magician YourCityName"

Even if its done on a blog site for free, it's a good start. Then there's he problem of creating an unprofessional looking online presence, which the first impression can turn customers off. I am in that process now, seeking professionals to look after my designing needs.
"Great Scott the Magician", Gippsland
JoshLondonMagic
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A free website won't get you anywhere. And it does the opposite of what you want to do. Learn or spend the money to create a quality site that sells when you sleep.

Josh
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Mindpro
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I agree. We will not even consider booking or rep'ing an act with a free web site or without their own domain. We'd prefer the not have one that appear amateur or frugal. Again especially not for professional markets or buyers. The minuter I see free hosted web site it screams amateur, non-professional or not willing to invest with themselves. I mean come on, you can get a decent site for ten bucks a month! If you are even thinking about working with agents you should also have an "agency-friendly" web site. If you do not know what this is, you're probably not ready.
JoshLondonMagic
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Mindpro, your above comment is again gold! I have 3 different sites for different markets. The hosting costs me $60 a year and $30/ year for the domains. The themes are $40 (one time buy). It's so simple to have a quality site with Wordpress and some time to learn design.

I'm at a different place and market than mindpro and others who want the "big gigs" but I work the weekends and a few shows during the week and make my own way. Life is good.
Josh
eatonmagic
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Quote:
On 2013-04-27 09:50, Mindpro wrote:
Finally!....Someone here speaks the real truth. I see here, day in and day out, reading all of these things about search engine optimization, adwords, pay-per-clicks, web sites, Gigmasters, Gig Salad & Party Pop, Twitter and Facebook marketing, and on and on.

Bob speaks in such reality for the professional and even semi-professional performer. These are the truths if you are working professional markets. Other than on low-end consumer markets, talent buyers in many cases stay away from entertainers that heavily use these methods. It's like the old yellow pages when so many had ads there. Your best, most working professional performers did not for the reasons Bob speaks of regarding talent buyers and agents operating on these levels. How professionally are you perceived if you are in among all the others including amateurs, bottom-feeders and sub-level performers?

It so nice to hear someone speak this. So many today are spending waaay too much money on this online marketing and not really getting the returns they expect. Most will never admit to this. While it may have it's place as one single method of lead generation, if you are expecting or relying on direct bookings from this you may easily become disappointed.

Nice post Bob!


I have a hard time believing that online marketing IS NOT a valuable tool for the performer. I would agree that there is a huge difference in a very amateurish looking website versus one that is functional and provides proper information as well as generates leads. But to say that ANY online marketing isn't worth the investment is a hard pill to swallow.

Today isn't yesterday. Yes I realize that 54 years ago the internet wasn't around and people were being booked all the time but today's techniques are still the same just delivered in a different medium. I realize that when you're in front of someone that's a lot more powerful way of selling your services but let's not forget that online searching generates just as many results. Back in the day, referrals were another great strategy of building new relationships. Today, social media does the same thing but with larger results. Your fans will still talk about your business and how much they love it but just to a much larger audience. You can tell a better story via Youtube or better yet by engaging your audience. Blogging is another great way of connecting to potential clients and Linkedin connections are growing more and more with the highest percentage of qualified buyers/customers.

While most of my gigs are booked from people I have performed for at events such as my restaurants or the Orlando Magic games, I can honestly say that nearly 30% have found me online via Facebook or through our SeeLiveMagic national registry.

Do me a favor, next time you want to eat at a nice place, don't Google any restaurants in your area. Or, next time you're on Facebook, don't post anything about your shows or pictures from a gig or even TALK about your magic. Or don't text someone and say "Let's go to _____ for dinner". It's absolutely RIDICULOUS to say that online marketing cannot play a HUGE role in one's business. The only problem is that the person must be willing to learn how to use these tools in the first place.
Dannydoyle
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I see both sides of the equasion. The work I do onli e marketing is not very useful. I am not an average situation. I can see where in many if not most situations onoine marketing would help. I just don't know enough to take advantage of it if it did!
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
David Marcus
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It seems to me

That it all depends on the target market.

Birthday party moms don't mind booking a performer with a free site. In fact they may pass up someone with an elaborate "too expensive looking" site. They also look at facebook.

High end talent buyers, agents, etc. avoid the free sites.

And there are any number of situations in between those two.

As far as facebook being for "bottom feeders" I wouldn't count this man as one, and he has two facebook sites.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Jerry-Sein......26077900
http://www.facebook.com/jerry.seinfield.33

Seinfield doesn't have them there for angents and talent buyers. There for his fans, friends, and people who just want to read something about him.

It all depends on the purpose of the material.
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Mindpro
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Quote:
On 2013-05-01 00:18, eatonmagic wrote:

I have a hard time believing that online marketing IS NOT a valuable tool for the performer. I would agree that there is a huge difference in a very amateurish looking website versus one that is functional and provides proper information as well as generates leads. But to say that ANY online marketing isn't worth the investment is a hard pill to swallow.

Today isn't yesterday. Yes I realize that 54 years ago the internet wasn't around and people were being booked all the time but today's techniques are still the same just delivered in a different medium. I realize that when you're in front of someone that's a lot more powerful way of selling your services but let's not forget that online searching generates just as many results. Back in the day, referrals were another great strategy of building new relationships. Today, social media does the same thing but with larger results. Your fans will still talk about your business and how much they love it but just to a much larger audience. You can tell a better story via Youtube or better yet by engaging your audience. Blogging is another great way of connecting to potential clients and Linkedin connections are growing more and more with the highest percentage of qualified buyers/customers.

While most of my gigs are booked from people I have performed for at events such as my restaurants or the Orlando Magic games, I can honestly say that nearly 30% have found me online via Facebook or through our SeeLiveMagic national registry.

Do me a favor, next time you want to eat at a nice place, don't Google any restaurants in your area. Or, next time you're on Facebook, don't post anything about your shows or pictures from a gig or even TALK about your magic. Or don't text someone and say "Let's go to _____ for dinner". It's absolutely RIDICULOUS to say that online marketing cannot play a HUGE role in one's business. The only problem is that the person must be willing to learn how to use these tools in the first place.


Michael & David,

I believe you are confusing several things that have been said. My comments were pertaining to "professional" markets served by industry or corporate talent buyers, not "consumer" markets such as kids and family parties, restaurants, and other markets in which uneducated or laymen clients (parents, etc.) are seeking consumer-level services for consumer-level events.

I've stated repeatedly that marketing IS a valuable tool to the entertainer, but that is all it is, it is simply one tool in what should be a operational system that in part includes marketing.

I agree with David as it may pertain to kids events on the consumer level.

Yes, on the consumer level, a web site, social, media and so on could be used as tools AS A LEAD GENERATORS, not for the purpose of direct bookings. I can't tell you how many times I see entertainers that somehow truly believe that if they just have a web site, a Facebook page or a local membership to Gigmasters or other listing services, that these will lead to direct bookings. Yes, they CAN happen, but if your "marketing" strategy is to do these things and believe the booking will start coming in, you are simply setting yourself up for failure and more than likely are wasting money and not getting what you expect out of it.

As an agency owner I can tell you our perspectives on how we view such online resources and techniques when an entertainers presents them to us for representation consideration. There is no way I would touch most of these when working with my professional clients. Often these online things can identify you with a certain level of proficiency or level of operation that can work against you. I can't tell you how many magicians, clowns, and other entertainers use the same site to target a four year olds birthday party as they would trying to target a corporate company picnic. It's embarrassing. t literally works against them, period. It would better for us and our agents not to have any presence or Google-abilty so we could present it to our clients without this poor unprofessional perceptions

Michael's comment - "Back in the day, referrals were another great strategy of building new relationships. Today, social media does the same thing but with larger results" is in my opinion absolutely incorrect. Even today in your world of high-tech, wiz-bang technology and apparent solutions, there is still not any method more beneficial, affordable and effective than having a great show to generate additional bookings. Next to that referrals are still equally just as effective as ever before to generate new clients and business. This will never go out of style and has nothing to do with a specific generation of business.

Again, my point is and has always been none of this "marketing" stuff matters if you do not have a system in place to capitalize on these or any leads that may be generated. Sooooo many entertainers are spending money on all of this new stuff, techniques and methods, yet only have a 10, 15 or 20% conversion rate of actually turning these leads or inquiries into actual bookings. You tell me (anyone, not Michael specifically) what would you rather do/have - spend $200 per month, get twenty leads and a conversion of 15%, or spend little, less or minimal on "marketing" or "lead generation" and say get 10 inquiries a month though great performances and referrals and a conversion of 70%? Which one truly generates more income, positions yourself for rebookings or referrals, and is most cost effective?

Again, as stated, "it really depends on your level of performance markets" - consumer or professional, but this works across the board in all markets on all levels.

I agree with Michael that consumer level prospective clients may search online as they used to in the yellow pages as I already stated earlier, so yes having some of the online things can enhance your efforts, but I still contest they will not get you bookings, only possible leads...these are two different things. One puts money in your pockets and the other creates an opportunity to do so.


"Do me a favor, next time you want to eat at a nice place, don't Google any restaurants in your area. Or, next time you're on Facebook, don't post anything about your shows or pictures from a gig or even TALK about your magic. Or don't text someone and say "Let's go to _____ for dinner". It's absolutely RIDICULOUS to say that online marketing cannot play a HUGE role in one's business. The only problem is that the person must be willing to learn how to use these tools in the first place."

I would never use Google when seeking a restaurant and as many here know would never post photos and especially videos online of any of my performances. That would work against the positioning and system I have in place and have had success with more decades.

Yes, it can "play a role". I agree if you are going to use online resources you must understand them, their use and have the proper expectations. Yes they can play a role in your marketing for certain markets. The post that triggered this was about professional markets which I think online marketing plays a much less crucial role and efforts and money could be better spent elsewhere targeted towards these markets and professional buyers. To me it's all about your business plan, strategy and outline, which many performers also don't seem to have so the result is they go blindly into "marketing" trying whatever is popular or trendy, never really achieving their desired results.

I'm sure the materials Michael is working on could be beneficial to those serving such performance markets that feel an online presence could help them on a consumer level. But like anything it should just be a partial component in your overall business, and it should be understood completely.
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