I am a very heavy technical card worker. I do lots of sleight-of-hand, but lately I have been doing some Osterland stuff and it has killed people. I have never gotten reactions like that before.

I think close up mentalism is great but what do you think about stage mentalism? Before, when I was a laymen to mentalism I really thought most of it was done by stooges because it was too impossible. Even if there are lots of test conditions to exclude stooges, I still feel that it's the only way it can be done.

What do you guys think about that? Sort of like the too perfect theory.

Tony C.

The fact that mentalism is so powerful is exactly why many of us choose to perform it. Good mentalism will get far better reactions than good magic, simply because people are willing to suspend their disbelief farther for mentalism. Nobody will ever really think you have extraordinary abilities if you repeatedly bring a card to the top of a deck. But if you seem to literally read their mind?? People will freak out.

I think it's the closest thing to what most people would consider "real" magic.

If a magician changes the color of a hanky, then everyone knows its a trick.

But some of the mentalism effects look pretty real.

I just re-read my post, and I wanted to add something.

One of the reasons mentalism is so powerful is because it readily facilitates a connection with the audience, whereas playing with cards or sponge balls is much less conducive to forming a connection. Granted, their are some very powerful card effects that facilitate this connection, such as Anniversary Waltz. However, when you are dealing with people's thoughts and memories, that connection is almost automatic.

A very good essay on this topic was in a recent MAGIC magazine. (I think maybe Sept. or Oct. 2003) It was entitled "Devil's Picture Book" and was written by Derren Brown.

All I can say is even though I start my stage presentations by saying I don't believe in the word "psychic" and what I do has to do with psychological principles, I still have people coming up after the show to ask when I noticed I could do these things and can I speak to the dead.
I rarely had that happen when I did some good card tricks.
Greg

Mentalism is very powerful indeed. After I became a university professor, I quit doing it. I didn't quit because it wasn't fun and entertaining. And I never made any bones about this is a trick not some super mental power. I didn’t quit because I was asked to quit.

The key reason I quit is because I had a crying female come to my office and beg me to give her an important name and telephone number that she had lost. No amount of conversation would convince her that I did not have that power. Although, she returned on several occasions with the same request and even waited at my car to catch me one time, she still went away unconvinced that I could not help her. She left believing that I simply would not help her. No professor can afford that. My real job is to help. Unearned credibility is as bad as no credibility.

Before, my experiences had essentially been people who had lost keys, locked themselves out of cars, needed a significant date I had used in a show, etc. Those are harmless and frequently no real challenge to most people with access to the information. Those are requests for help not based upon belief but upon hope. The person making the request understands that.

When the audience really believes that you are lying about not having the powers, it’s time to change audiences or the act. This can become a very dangerous situation for both the audience and the entertainer. Do no harm.

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander

After a magic show, no matter how good it was, the audience will always comment; "My Goodness... How did he do that?" After a proper Mentalism performance they will comment; "My Goodness... was that for real?"

Mentalism is therefore fundamentally different on the level of realism and mystery it produces, and is why many of us decided upon this branch of entertainment.

So "is Mentalism too strong?" Of course not. It is exactly what it should be.

Michael

"Is mentalism too powerful?" Consider the flip side of the coin --

"Is magic (as it is generally performed) too weak?"

For many of us, the answer is "yes," and it has led us to mentalism.

I prefer mentalism because of the connection with the audience.

Magic doesn't have that same intense connection. Mentalism if done correctly is never seen as a mere trick. If done correctly it IS much more than a mere trick.

Having said that there are some really good magic effects around too!

Well... You only have to study Uri Geller to realise how powerful the 'mentalism' angle to magic can be.

You see, everyone want's to believe in 'magic', whether it be 'Santa' or 'Jesus' or 'Blaine'! The human brain is conditioned to seek a higher knowledge, but get's freaked out at things it doesn't understand - so it tries to rationalise, comes up with, pseudo explanations - Geller did just that, he convinced the world that we are all capable of bending spoons, reading minds, stopping clocks - he made it appear NORMAL.

In a nutshell you ain't gonna do THAT with a pack of cards.

What makes mentalism so effective (when performed well), is the fact that the audience intuitively believes in what may be possible.

When magicians downplay this impact with heavy disclaimers, or worse expose for "educational" purposes, they are only dealing with their own quilt IMO. Feeling responsible for what people should, or shouldn't believe in, just strikes me as arrogant.

For me, a great mentalist shows how great the audience is. Not how great he/she is. This is why mentalism is so effective IMO.

jr

Shrink that is the absolutely first reason I went for mentalism

Oh, and there's also the not-so-uncommon reaction: "Why did (s)he do that?" This indicates to me that mentalism can feel invasive or threatening to members of the audience, if we don't take care in our presentation.

Good point, Neil. It also has led some of us to hone our magic so that it is not performed as it is generally (weakly) performed. (I'm not yet convinced of the dichotomy between magic and mentalism that seems the current vogue... but that's another topic for another thread.)

I took a group of psychotherapists and social workers to The Magic Castle last month. They saw both a mental act and Shoot Ogawa's (sleight of hand) performance. The topic of "post-Castle" luncheon conversation was not the mentalism, but Shoot Ogawa. The topic was two-fold: how much they liked Shoot's effects (he gave out souvenirs to my guests) and how much they liked his persona.



And ascribing to others motives they do not have seems equally arrogant, Jim. Those performers who use a disclaimer state pretty cogently their reasons for doing so, and it has nothing to do with condescension or guilt.

I use a disclaimer, but not because I feel responsibility for what people "should or shouldn't believe in." It has to do with acknowledging what some people do, in fact, believe in. I know that some believe in paranormal phenomena, and, wanting to be considerate of that (without endorsing it), I take care not to pawn off trickery as some evidence of their sincerely-held belief. It is a matter of respect, Jim, not a matter of feeling guilty or of some judgment about what they should believe. The ethic is not so complicated. It's merely the Golden Rule: I don't want people to feed me baloney when I ask for ham, and I won't do it to others. I have found that I can entertain with mentalism or mental magic without mocking beliefs by presenting deceptions as evidence.

I guess what we need to do first of all is define what we mean by powerful?


Mentalism for me was just an extention of what I already do. I work with peoples minds. I see mentalism as a tool to continue or add to that process.

A general disclaimer is probably a good thing. And you don't have to be to specific. "what you will see tonight is just for fun its not meant to foster beliefs in the supernatural or otherwise....but I can promise you we will have a lot of fun".

People can take what they want from that statement. you also cover yourself from debunkers. Osterlind has a similar take on that in his Mind Mystery DVD vol 1. I think its the best way to go.

It seems to me that the most powerful magic is that which has a personal connection to someone. For example, a borrowed object is vanished and appears elsewhere, the volunteer takes one sponge ball in their hand and closes it only to open it again and find two or more, etc.

The reason I perform mentalism is that you get make no more personal connection to a person than touching their mind.

The best reactions I get from mentalism are either complete stunned silence (happened several times last night in fact) and not "How did you do that?" but "I can't believe you did that!"

Mike

Yes one of the unerving things about mentalism especially when you first start performing is the silence! At first you don't know if its because you died. then you realize you've stunned them.

I started a thread in the Inner Thoughts a few weeks ago on powerful mentalism that looked at the various elements that went into creating particularly powerful effects.

These are all very interesting thoughts. What we are looking at are PERSONALITIES and REASONS why each of us perform. I can only speak for myself and I do what I do because I love MYSTERY and seeing others react to it. As far as the magic vs. mentalism debate, I have a different point of view. Bending metal is, in reality, a MAGIC effect! And yet it is one of the strongest things you can do. That is what gave Uri his fame, more than the other stuff. If you look at the audience's reaction to my glass of water production, the signed coin in bottle or the challenge torn and restored newspaper effect, you will see the SAME kind of reactions as to the mentalism. I have said this so many times, but I do not believe that mentalism is too strong, but that a lot of magic is not strong enough! Too many people get hung up on sleights, expensive apparatus, etc., and forget about EFFECT! Do something IMPOSSIBLE, that has MEANING and NO POSSIBLE EXPLANATION and you have a winner. Now inject a little personality and a good manner and you can't go wrong, regardless of whether it is magic or mentalism.

Richard

I tried to take a stab at this in the intro. to my first booklet. Mentalism does have an impact far out of proportion to the "effort" involved. People know to "suspect" the boxes of the stage illusionist, and they "respect" the quick hands of a cardologist. But they can't see, or understand, how "thoughts" can be manipulated as easily.

I was not gifted with a very developed sense of physical coordination .My knack for physical sleights, and especially physical misdirection, simply did not come naturally. I realized that my most coordinated abilities were largely restricted between my ears and around my jaw!
Likewise, my craftsman's abilities were better spent doing slight alterations to stationery than building, say, a zig zag box! I remember the frisson I had upon first cracking open Kaye's "Mental Magic" at the library. I saw the illustration for the Swami gimmick. I knew that my thumb probably wouldn't go back to practicing so many glides and French Drops from that point on.


Often, I would introduce the effects as a series of experiments and look as surprised as the audience. I suppose there is plenety of discussion elsewhere on just how STRONG you and your effects should come off, (and maybe more importantly, how to be paced and framed).Even though I would joke and make subtle disclaimers during my shows, I'd get that "silence" Shrink mentioned. Some people (mostly female) would give me "that look" after a particularly strong effect (esp. my Bill Divination) or later want to discuss spiritual (or worse yet, "spiritualist") topics. Because of this, I would downplay "faux-intimacy" of any kind, (such as readings), in my act, (and I also learned to leave quickly after a show! )

Interesting to hear Bob Sanders experience with his student. I can understand why he chose to stop doing mentalism and respect his decision, but surely as long as mentalism is presented in the context of entertainment then we cannot be held responsible for what our audience do and do not believe.

I agree with Richard Osterlind that mentalism OR good magic can floor spectators if performed with good personality, but the important thing is that it leaves people with no possible way out. Many tricks with cards and coins are all very well, but an intelligent audience will know you are using sleight of hand, even if they cannot see it. Tricks with 'apparatus' will arouse suspicion (as per adolphus' post).

I perform often for medical professionals and the only things that really floor them are mentalism effects or the most 'hands off' of magic tricks. The stunned silence that others have talked about is becoming familiar...

Merlin

First of all, the too-perfect theory is often quoted without being understood. The too-perfect theory is a whipping boy for people who don't want to do magic that is basically flawless. If mentalism is done with the right "sell," it is some of the most powerful entertainment on the planet. If it is done badly, it can be deadly dull.