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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2013-04-24 12:14, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Naturalized citizenship can be lost in a number of ways, including:

* treason conviction
* refusing to testify before congress about a number of activities that would undermine the country
* Lying or withholding info during the naturalization process


None of which have happened yet. They are talking about taking away his rights in order to further the investigation process.

I am not saying his rights can not be taken away after the process has been followed. I am saying that they need to follow the guidelines and not just redefine him as needed to further an investigation.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2013-04-24 10:05, landmark wrote:
Danny wrote:
Quote:
You can not confer rights on him and tell him he is a citizen and take them away when they are most important. Our rights protect us in these situations! Who needs them when you have done nothing wrong? It is strange but true.

Can we frame this please? Danny, I hate to tell you, but this comment is the way to identify a true liberal, in the Voltaire sense of the word.


Yea no it wouldn't lol. It would more be from one who simply believes in the constitution and every word in it. Not those imagined or inturpreted to be there. Remarkable huh?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Pakar Ilusi
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On 2013-04-24 05:35, Woland wrote:
Stay well, Pakar Ilusi!


Thanks Woland. Appreciated. Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Woland
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According to a report in the New York Times, the dead terrorist's brother-in-law had this explanation for the attack:

Quote:
{H}e was angry that the world pictures Islam as a violent religion.


How would anyone get such an idea? But he sure proved them wrong, didn't he?
tommy
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You sure have not proved him guilty.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2013-04-24 12:47, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-04-24 12:14, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Naturalized citizenship can be lost in a number of ways, including:

* treason conviction
* refusing to testify before congress about a number of activities that would undermine the country
* Lying or withholding info during the naturalization process


None of which have happened yet. They are talking about taking away his rights in order to further the investigation process.

I am not saying his rights can not be taken away after the process has been followed. I am saying that they need to follow the guidelines and not just redefine him as needed to further an investigation.


Agreed. But this is all now moot, given that he has been given the Miranda warning by the judge and has had counsel appointed. They system is working as it should.
tommy
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Not if they can use the evidence of what he said before the warning was given it isn't.


FBI's latest entrapped patsy, Abdella Ahmad Tounisi, a U.S. citizen, attempted to join Al Qaeda's Syrian franchise, Jabhat al-Nusra. The irony is, as Tounisi is charged with attempting to provide material support to a foreign terrorist organization, the US State Department has announced an additional $123 million in military aid to these very same terrorists. 

System going well. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
TomBoleware
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They better get the stories straight before they go to court.

First they said it was a shoot out at the boat, now they are saying he didn't have a gun.

"WASHINGTON (AP) — Two U.S. officials say the surviving suspect in the Boston bombings was unarmed when police captured him hiding inside a boat in a neighborhood back yard."

"Authorities originally said they had exchanged gunfire for more than one hour Friday evening before they were able to subdue him."

"The officials tell The Associated Press that no gun was found in the boat. Boston Police Commissioner Ed Davis said earlier that shots were fired from inside the boat."


Tom
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LobowolfXXX
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I wonder where else it could be.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2013-04-24 21:31, tommy wrote:
Not if they can use the evidence of what he said before the warning was given it isn't.



They can't. The exemption only allows law enforcement a limited amount of time to ask questions of involving matters of immediate public safety. (Like "Is there another bomb?" etc.) Information gained in this manner prior to issuing the Miranda warning cannot later be used against the defendant.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2013-04-24 20:53, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-04-24 12:47, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-04-24 12:14, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Naturalized citizenship can be lost in a number of ways, including:

* treason conviction
* refusing to testify before congress about a number of activities that would undermine the country
* Lying or withholding info during the naturalization process


None of which have happened yet. They are talking about taking away his rights in order to further the investigation process.

I am not saying his rights can not be taken away after the process has been followed. I am saying that they need to follow the guidelines and not just redefine him as needed to further an investigation.


Agreed. But this is all now moot, given that he has been given the Miranda warning by the judge and has had counsel appointed. They system is working as it should.


I agree it is moot BUT I get worried the way people are just so willing to change things based on fear or the convienence of investigation. If our government could possibly just redefine him as whatever then who can't they do that to? I am not being paranoid it is an honest question. An honest concern.

I don't like when they find ways around things. It makes me oogy. I am all for this guy taking all the punishment the law provides for. But the WAY it provides for it. Not sneaky.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Pakar Ilusi
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Quote:
On 2013-04-24 18:11, Woland wrote:
According to a report in the New York Times, the dead terrorist's brother-in-law had this explanation for the attack:

Quote:
{H}e was angry that the world pictures Islam as a violent religion.


How would anyone get such an idea? But he sure proved them wrong, didn't he?


That would be so funny if it wasn't so sad. Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
General_Magician
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Quote:
agree it is moot BUT I get worried the way people are just so willing to change things based on fear or the convienence of investigation. If our government could possibly just redefine him as whatever then who can't they do that to? I am not being paranoid it is an honest question. An honest concern.

I don't like when they find ways around things. It makes me oogy. I am all for this guy taking all the punishment the law provides for. But the WAY it provides for it. Not sneaky.
Danny Doyle


For me, as I am sure it is with many of my fellow Americans, it's about keeping America safe. Outside of the US, it's a very dangerous world with some very serious threats and in many parts of the globe, people don't know if they are going to live to see the next day. We have it pretty easy and good compared to many parts of the world. I want to keep it that way and that means keeping America safe from these threats that are present around the globe.

Some of my views were formed after learning of the sometimes complex nature and the seriousness of the threats we face as Americans after serving some time overseas in the National Guard. Part of dealing with these threats is setting boundaries, such as if you travel overseas as a private citizen and receive training from terrorist organizations waging war against America, you are no longer an American but are now the enemy and it's open season on you.

Seems like that is at least what one of these two Chechens did which was why I felt "enemy combatant" designation was a fair designation for these two. People need to know that their are boundaries to contend with when you have American citizenship and if one wishes to keep American citizenship and the rights, privileges and protections that come with American citizenship.

As far as Danny sounding like a liberal, many conservatives have a "shadow" to themselves which is liberal, just as many liberals have a "shadow" of themselves which is conservative. Perhaps the discussion has brought out our shadows. I have read about some of these things in Jungian psychology. I regard myself as a liberal, yet in this particular case, I came across as strong conservative in my views on how best to handle this case. Just a thought to throw in the discussion given some years ago I read some Jungian psychology.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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landmark
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Agreed GM that people are always a mixture of opposites to varying degrees. I think the most interesting and surprising thing I've learned about human nature as I get older is that no one quality or characteristic in a person absolutely predicts the presence or absence of any other particular quality or characteristic. We are not neat little packages, though we act as if we can classify others. But that is strictly for our own sense of security.
Woland
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It is very sad, indeed, Pakar. But if you close your eyes, you won't see anything. And if you willfully prevent yourself and others from recognizing the problem, you will never solve it.
Woland
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Thank you, Eric Holder:

Quote:
BOSTON (AP) - The surviving suspect in the Boston Marathon bombings acknowledged to the FBI his role in the attacks but did so before he was advised of his constitutional right to keep quiet and seek a lawyer, U.S. officials said Wednesday.

Once Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was read his rights on Monday, he immediately stopped talking, according to four officials of both political parties who were briefed on the interrogation but insisted on anonymity because the briefing was private.

After roughly 16 hours of questioning, investigators were surprised when a magistrate judge and a representative from the U.S. Attorney's office entered the hospital room and read Tsarnaev his rights, the four officials and one law enforcement official said. Investigators had planned to keep questioning him.

It is unclear whether any of this will matter in court since the FBI says Tsarnaev confessed to a witness and U.S. officials said Wednesday that physical evidence, including a 9 mm handgun and pieces of a remote-control device commonly used in toys, was recovered from the scene. {Bold added.}


It may not matter in court, but it surely matters in terms of preventing the next attack miscreants of this ilk are planning to launch.

Note that the "public safety" exception to reading a prisoner the Miranda rights statement lasts for 48 hours. There were 32 hours to go for this guy.

Quote:
After Tsarnaev was captured on Friday night following a day-long manhunt, U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz announced that, for at least 48 hours, Tsarnaev—who had been seriously wounded during the chase—would be interrogated without being informed of his right to remain silent, or his right to be represented by an attorney.

The basis for this decision is the so-called “public safety” exception to the Miranda rule, which an increasingly conservative Supreme Court created in 1984, in a case called New York v. Quarles.

The public-safety exception began its legal life as a very narrow exception to the constitutional rule that a suspect must be read his rights before statements he makes can be used against him in court. In Quarles, police captured a rape suspect, noticed he was wearing an empty holster, and asked him where his gun was. He told them, and the court ruled his statement could be used against him, even though he had not been read his rights.

The Supreme Court’s rationale for making an exception to Miranda in such circumstances is that the police’s actions were not aimed primarily to elicit evidence that could be used against the defendant at trial, but to protect the public from imminent danger, while a dangerous person was still in the process of being taken into custody.
Dannydoyle
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The complexity of the world is no excuse. The world is no more comex than it was hundreds of years ago. Pseudo intellectual babble to justify acting out of fear is not going to cut it.

When we redefine ourselves out of fear and change our core because it is easier then we cease to be who we arw. At that point I am afraid the bad guys have won. Right is still right. Once we seek to change a man's status based on only convienece we are down a very bad road.

You can't imagine all the shades of gray involved in street cop work. Where do the changes end? You have no idea how much easier things are if we just... well you keep adding things. And adding things. I have seen it happen.

So the world being complex is no excuse. Price of freedom being eternal vigilance and all that. The price hasn't gone up. The only difference is that we see it in our back yards now. That scares people.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Woland
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How we are being slowly subjugated:

Quote:
Williams-Sonoma, the (absolutely amazing) kitchen-stuff company, has pulled pressure cookers–which the Tsarnaevs built into bombs–from shelves in Massachusetts.


If you want to understand the process of subjugation in slightly more detail, read here. It's also relevant to understanding the significance, to them, of the fact that terrorists live off of the welfare system that exists in the Western democracies they despise.
RobertSmith
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Quote:
On 2013-04-24 21:31, tommy wrote:
Not if they can use the evidence of what he said before the warning was given it isn't.


FBI's latest entrapped patsy, Abdella Ahmad Tounisi, a U.S. citizen, attempted to join Al Qaeda's Syrian franchise, Jabhat al-Nusra. The irony is, as Tounisi is charged with attempting to provide material support to a foreign terrorist organization, the US State Department has announced an additional $123 million in military aid to these very same terrorists. 

System going well. Smile


That'll probably come down to a decision by the judge.

The prosecution will argue the public safety exemption allowed them to question.
The defendant's attorney will argue that the public safety exemption is strictly limited and that there could be no public safety issue because, upon his arrest, the Boston police and FBI basically said, "Go about your business, people. There's no further threat."

If I was the judge, I'd side with the defendant and throw any testimony out.

Here's a solid explanation from Judge Napolitano.
http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/04/25/nap......as-doing
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