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Kent Wong Inner circle Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 2458 Posts |
Assuming that both versions are presented with the same degree of skill, which version do you think has a greater impact and is more magical to the audience? I had this interesting conversation with a fellow illusionist recently and he had some interesting opinions about the two illusions.
Kent
"Believing is Seeing"
<BR>______________________ <BR> <BR>www.kentwongmagic.com |
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Oliver Ross Inner circle Europe 1724 Posts |
Hi Kent,
I don't own either of the two illusions, but I've seen both. To answer your question, I would say that the Wakeling Sawing is more magical and has a greater impact to the audience. My reason for this assumption are : - The design of the illusion (It's just a table and two boxes, two blades and two swords, plus the leather latches and nothing else) - The swords pushes through both boxes to convince that the assistant must have get harmed - It's an interactive illusion Today audiences want to see things up close, touch them and get more involved. In this way they can see and feel that nothing tricky is going on. This is possible with the Wakeling Sawing but not that much with the Thin Model Sawing. Voilà , my humble opinion. Oliver. |
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Frank Simpson Special user SW Montana 883 Posts |
I really don't think you can accurately separate the prop from the performer. Like two wonderful songs, both can be pieces of art and both can be horrifyingly annoying, depending on how they're performed.
The song does have to be well-crafted to give the performer something decent to work with, but ultimately it is the showmanship of the performer who will either make it something of beauty or of ashes. Perhaps a more accurate way to phrase the question would be "which prop lends itself to a better performance?", but even that cannot really be definitive. Example (again borrowing from music): the late singer Anthony Newley had a sizable hit with the song.....Pop Goes the Weasel of all things! Only a performer of exceptional skill could make someone actually want to hear that song! As usual we tend to put the prop first, the performance second (or later!). The props should ALWAYS serve the performance, NEVER the other way around! This, of course, is alluded to in the original post (assuming equal skill) but I think the matter bears at least some attention. Personally I have enjoyed Thin Sawing performances better than Wakeling Sawings that I've seen. Stan Kramien used to to it with a committee of spectators and it was spectacular! I believe that in either case, showmanship is EVERYTHING! The prop is just the prop. |
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w_s_anderson Inner circle The United States 1226 Posts |
My vote goes to the TMS. As long as it is a deceptively built TMS. I have seen some versions where the "T" stood for Thick and they were awful.....no performance was going to salvage that. LOL I think the TMS is more forgiving to a lackluster performer than a wakeling sawing is. You have a lot more to sell on a wakeling than you do on a TMS. Though if you watch a true master like Rick Thomas perform the wakeling and you would disagree with everything I just said and prefer the wakeling.
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msillusions New user Ft. Worth 60 Posts |
They are both great effects. Clearly impossible can be a wonderful variation on the Thin model, if performed well with a great assistant. And has a powerful impact on the audience. The wakeling has the interaction with the audience, and is more of a "challenge" type effect which to me works best with a spoken performance. So again it comes down to the performer. A great performer can make either illusion have a strong impact.
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freefallillusion1 Elite user Cincinnati, OH 446 Posts |
For those who I don't know personally, some background first: I have been a professional magician for 19 years, and I have presented a full illusion show for 16 of those years. For the last 14 years, I have had the task of creating a brand new 30 minute show with a complete beginning, middle, and strong finale. I have built over 30 illusions of all types, and I continually study everything I can see or read in terms of illusion design and presentation.
So, all that said, here's my take on the question that was posed (one man's opinion)- I seem to be all alone in the world in that I do not understand any of the logic behind the Wakeling sawing. I know the usual arguments, such as "It's the performer that can make this into a true gem" and "It's not what you see, it's what you don't see that makes the Wakeling powerful". So, hypothetical here- let's apply that same logic to Harbin's wonderful, time tested zig-zag. What if I said "My zig-zag will have none of the usual body parts showing- instead, I'll strap the girl securely in place and the audience will have no problem trusting those straps just as much as something they could otherwise blatantly see in the former version". Who here would find that difficult to understand? I've been a fan of Kalin and Jinger for a long time now. But, I've got to say that the first time I saw their presentation of the Wakeling sawing on "Hidden secrets of Magic", (old special), I thought then (and still do) that it's the best example I've ever seen of how magic should not look. Watch when the restoration occurs- it's "Quickly slam the tables back together, quickly remove the blades, and quickly open the side doors to show that she's still there in both boxes". Does this not just scream "Hey, look how fast she was able to get back in place!"? Compare this with a good performance of the thin model sawing- I have never seen it performed with that sense of urgency, because at restoration time, there's absolutely no need. No one hurries to remove the blades- why would you? No one hurries to show the girl there, because you can see the head and feet, and moments ago you saw the sides open as well. In addition, even though the Wakeling is normally presented with a commitee on stage, I could easily do the thin model that way with a bit of creative audience management. I haven't seen Kramien's presentation, but I'd like to! Bottom line, and this is still just my own opinion, I see the thin model as superior in every way. It's simply an awesome illusion. Classics are classics for a reason- they work! |
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WayneCapps Special user Charleston, SC 769 Posts |
Well, I have to respectfully disagree with reefallillusion1. I personally think the Wakeling is one of the best illusions out there if done right. Personally I love the classics so this is perfect for me. My friend had a TMS and I have played with it a lot. I really like it but it is only deceptive from a distance. We measured it and a girl would actually have to be 7ft 2in if the boxes were not gaffed.
There is a reason the Wakeling has stood the test of time. Personally I like the reaction from the audience when the Wakeling is performed. Most of the time, when the blade is slammed down the audience gasps. You never get that reaction with the TMS. The reaction you typically get is "hmmmm, that is interesting." Just my 2 cents. Funny timing on the post, I decided to build a Wakeling with a friend and just finished it today. I am very excited and can't want to get stared with it. Here are a couple pictures of my handy work if anyone is interested. http://www.flickr.com/photos/47083932@N0......ostream/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/47083932@N0......ostream/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/47083932@N0......ostream/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/47083932@N0......ostream/
Wayne Capps
AKA: Howard Blackwell Illusionist/Escape Artist www.BlackwellMagic.com https://www.facebook.com/HowieBWell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6on5fdJVcQ&feature=youtu.be |
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freefallillusion1 Elite user Cincinnati, OH 446 Posts |
Just to clarify, I only listed my experience because years ago, this very thing came up and lots of folks responded along the lines of "... If you had more stage experience, you'd understand why this works so well...". So, I am in no way trying to point out how long I've been involved in magic (heck, many folks here have me doubled or tripled). Just saying that I've done this for a while and seen a lot. But still, it's just my opinion on the question asked. If you perform the Wakeling and it works for you, awesome. What's good for magic is good for us all!
Phil |
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WayneCapps Special user Charleston, SC 769 Posts |
No worries, everyone has different opinions and I truly respect that. That is why I like magic, there are so many different areas, different interests and different opinions. This place is sort of like living my with my wife, we all have different opinions about everything but we are all in it together. I love hearing the different opinions, that is how we learn.
Wayne Capps
AKA: Howard Blackwell Illusionist/Escape Artist www.BlackwellMagic.com https://www.facebook.com/HowieBWell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6on5fdJVcQ&feature=youtu.be |
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Fábio DeRose Inner circle San Paolo, Brasile 1477 Posts |
Wayne,
Your prop looks stunning! |
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
I've seen Kirkham absolutely KILL with the old Pre-Thin sawing ala Thurston. So, IMHO it is the performer that makes the difference.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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ClintonMagus Inner circle Southwestern Southeast 3997 Posts |
Once I saw Doug Henning perform the Double Thin Sawing, I was hooked! Although I love the Wakeling version, I never really wanted one the way I want a Thin version (or a Double Thin version)...
Things are more like they are today than they've ever been before...
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WayneCapps Special user Charleston, SC 769 Posts |
Thanks Fabio
Wayne Capps
AKA: Howard Blackwell Illusionist/Escape Artist www.BlackwellMagic.com https://www.facebook.com/HowieBWell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6on5fdJVcQ&feature=youtu.be |
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Kent Wong Inner circle Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 2458 Posts |
Great discussion so far! Please keep the thoughts and comments coming in. I really appreciate it. The initial discussion I had with my friend and fellow illusionist centered around whether the Wakeling was perceived as magic or a puzzle. He argued in favour of the puzzle due mainly to the fact that the assistant is completely covered by the boxes and never actually "shown" to be in two pieces. In order to overcome this aspect of the illusion, he opined that it was essential for the spectators to be holding the straps in place, to act as a convincer.
Kent
"Believing is Seeing"
<BR>______________________ <BR> <BR>www.kentwongmagic.com |
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Lin_ New user 70 Posts |
Surely TMS is better than wakeling sawing.
A reason for vanishing of performance of Selbit sawing, the first showing of cutting illusion is someone cannot find what is inside the box - and that's one reason for elaboration of all illusion magics. Magicians are meet many 'high-eye customers' as times flow. So many customers are always want to know about what's goin' in illusion boxes. Then. If I can chooose only in TMS or wakeling sawing, I surely choose TMS - because I don't want to show so-so and unidentified illusion, and want to reduce aggressive gaze of 'customers'. Surely, If I just touchable to another cutting illusion, I'll choose another thing than these! |
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WayneCapps Special user Charleston, SC 769 Posts |
Kent,
I love the conversation too. My friend and I also have this same conversation. He has the TMS and I have a Wakeling (so, I am a bit biased). But, aren't all illusions puzzles? I see where you are going but these days, no one believes in magic, thy believe in trickery. People don't pass out or faint anymore during a sawing in half. I mean, they might say "I know she disappeared but where did she go?" Or, She is floating and I can't figure it out? Sort of all puzzling questions that an audience might think. But I agree, performance is everything, especially for these 2 illusions.
Wayne Capps
AKA: Howard Blackwell Illusionist/Escape Artist www.BlackwellMagic.com https://www.facebook.com/HowieBWell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6on5fdJVcQ&feature=youtu.be |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Wakeling is a puzzle because you cannot see what has happened to her.
TMS is an optical illusion because you see exactly what happens to her. Which do you want to achieve will determine which is better for you.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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jimhlou Inner circle 3698 Posts |
To the layperson, the TMS looks impossible - it's magic! You're a magician!
The Wakeling is more of a puzzle: How'd she do that, is she in the box, are her legs really secured, are those straps really holding her ..." Gotta vote for thin sawing Jim |
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Keith Jozsef Loyal user 212 Posts |
The Wakeling just a puzzle? Gotta disagree. Some of the strongest magic occurs when the audience infers or connects the dots in their own mind, as to the subtleties that make the illusion deceptive. (read: "I've never seen it done like that, where she's being held down with straps...There's no way she could scrunch-up in one side!") -- As opposed to being "told" the illusion, (visually?), as in the TMS. (read: "Are those legs and feet real or fake?...Must be fake because they don't even move.")
(No Timmy, it's just that your illusionist didn't buck-up for the moving ones.) That's what kills me about the TMS. Do you really think the average laymen doesn't notice that the upper half of the body is animated, while the lower half just sits there, motionless? It essentially plays right into the stereotypical method, that most laymen believe is correct...no matter how thin the table. That's why I feel the Wakeling is stronger--because it attempts to cancel out this notion. As to Jim's comment, "are those straps really holding her..." I believe that's an experienced magician's point of view, rather than an average laymen's. If all laymen were that hyper-critical, we would fall into an infinite regression, whereby they believe nothing we suggest...everything must be fake; The boxes, the table, the blades, the casters...Where does it end? Should we have every inch examined? Of course not, this is a magic show not a laboratory. ***But even for the small percentage of laymen that fall into that hyper-critical realm--I believe every Wakeling presentation I've seen has involved both straps being examined....or at least inferred that they've both been examined. Keith |
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msillusions New user Ft. Worth 60 Posts |
I believe that two equal presentations of either illusion will get different reactions from different people. Just as some audience members prefer close up, some stage. Some people are visual, some more cerebral. I think we are sometimes too quick to say how an audience will perceive an effect. We project how we believe an audience should percieve an illusion, but unless you have heard a specific response from a large number of different people, we are just guessing. So to say that one effect is more magical to an audience and one is perceived as a puzzle doesn't hold up for me. I'll bet if you could do a focus group study, the results would be close to 50/50 as to which effect any group of individuals thought was more magical.
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