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Magic-Daniel
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I love a lot of the classics in magic. The Linking Rings is one of them.

I have never studied this effect, because I have a felling the secret to the effect is getting more and more known to laypeople.

I'm I wrong on this? Does anyone here still perform the Linking Rings for laypeople with great succes?

Thanks,
Daniel
MJ Marrs
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I remember Jonathan Pendragon performing the rings on the Palace stage at the Magic Castle during the time that the masked moron or another program had exposed the secret of the rings on national television. The routine went over extremely well. I recall a friend, who was just getting into magic and who I had taken to the Castle to see Pendragon's show, stating that he had seen the exposure program's segment about the rings. He then went on to state that he had no idea how Pendragon did his routine. It's a classic for a reason!
CJRichard
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The rings are truly ancient. I imagine that after a couple thousand years, a few people might know the secret. They probably have an idea how cup and balls are done, too. That does not stop a good routine from being magical to watch.
"You know some of you are laughin', but there's people here tryin' to learn. . ." -Pop Haydn

"I know of no other art that proclaims itself 'easy to do.'" -Master Payne

Ezekiel the Green
Bulla
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Take card manipulation for example, it doesn't take a genius to realize the cards are hidden behind his hand etc. Does that lessen the effect? Not at all because it's the fact that the audience KNOWS what he's doing but can't see it that makes it so effective. I feel linking rings are the same way. You're not trying to fool laymen with it but rather you're creating an illusion that is entertaining to watch.
funsway
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I was taught so many years ago that at least one effect in a show should be one that the audience will know or think they do or can figure out -- this eliminates any potential fear from appearing too real and allows each spectator to feel part of the show, especially if they think they are the only one "in the know." Remember that the famous book "Our Magic" was not written for magicians but for the lay audience in the belief that a bit of understanding of method would allow them to enjoy the artistry more.

Linking Rings fits the requirements well.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
magicians
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Just an old fashioned rings routine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RpsLAd2jCM
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
Marno
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So THAT'S the secret! Smile
David Fillary
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Funsway, that has given me a completely new perspective on performing magic and opened up a lot of new options to me - Thank you!
Would you ever recommend it for close up magic though? Then people are far more likely to "catch you out", so what are your thoughts?
funsway
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Check out "Heart Rings" -- very suitable for close-up and allows some impressive movers not possible with regular rings -- and combines Ring on Rope with the Linking.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
ROBERT BLAKE
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Quote:
On 2013-04-26 18:03, magicians wrote:
Just an old fashioned rings routine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RpsLAd2jCM


nice routine Ian. thanks for showing.
kentfgunn
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Quote:
On 2013-04-26 16:51, funsway wrote:
I was taught so many years ago that at least one effect in a show should be one that the audience will know or think they do or can figure out -- this eliminates any potential fear from appearing too real and allows each spectator to feel part of the show, especially if they think they are the only one "in the know." Remember that the famous book "Our Magic" was not written for magicians but for the lay audience in the belief that a bit of understanding of method would allow them to enjoy the artistry more.

Linking Rings fits the requirements well.


Who taught you this? I don't think many magicians face audience who think they're too real.

Pandering by doing effects or presentations that don't properly entertain the audience because they know how they work makes zero sense to me. I completely disagree with you on this one.

If you're not fooling them, you're a clown.

KG
magicians
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To a degree, and in the back of your mind, there is always the thought that some one in the audience will have the knowledge of the rings workings. You as a performer must do the rings as best as you are able and your moves should fool even those in the know.
When I watched Vernon do the rings, I almost cried. I felt it was one of the most beautiful renditions of the classic effect. It is that perfomance that allows me to present and disqualify the few who know the workings.
In my performance, I tease the audience into thinking that I am telling them the "secret" and of course I mislead them with contradictory moves I attribute to an optical illusion. At the same time, I exasperate the beginner magician who has a set, by telling the incredulous truth that the rings came exactly as they appear.
The moves you do will set your performance apart. Patterns, ring movement, and misdirection.
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
funsway
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Quote:
On 2013-04-29 05:18, kentfgunn wrote:

Who taught you this? I don't think many magicians face audience who think they're too real.

Pandering by doing effects or presentations that don't properly entertain the audience because they know how they work makes zero sense to me. I completely disagree with you on this one.

If you're not fooling them, you're a clown.

KG


Arnold Furst. Then personal experience in tens of thousands of performances in which I performed magic effects with no expectations on the part of the spectator. Everyone is afraid of something -- being "found out" at the top of the list. The counterpart of the dream of being more than they are is fear that they will be challenged and not measure up. Saying, "I only do magic for entertainment" is a cop- out IMHO

Why would you extract "pander" from anything I posted? Why do you judge that that performing a known effect is not "proper entertainment?" For me, to cater to some cry from a spectator of "entertain me" is pandering of the worse sort, to use your term. You might also view that If you take money for a performance you are prostituting yourself to some degree. But, I would never use those terms to describe another's work. Why do you? What are you afraid of?

Sorry that you think the purpose of a magic performance is to "fool them." I desire to astonish people -- to take them out of themselves or beyond their self-imposed limitations. It's called "hope."

Perhaps you will start of thread on "Proper entertain." I'd like to understand what that means.

Maybe that is what clowns do.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Dick Oslund
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Hi Kent!
I'm a performing magician (retired off the road, but still performing) --and, I've also clowned under a big top!

I don't totally agree with Funsway, but, I can understand his thinking.

And, to be honest, I didn't quite understand your two sentences! (It's 0530 hours--maybe that's my problem!)

However, I will submit an anecdote that may help further obfuscate! (Gee, I hope it doesn't!)

I was helping out behind the counter at MAGIC INC. about 30+ years ago, on a Saturday afternoon. Two young high school lads were standing at the counter. They didn't know each other, They had just met. One pointed at a set of Ed Drane 3" linking rings. "Could you show me that?" "Of course!" I dug out the rings, and did a few basic moves. (not a routine, just a few moves) The second young man exclaimed, "I have a set of rings like that, at home! --But, mine don't work like that!" He was thoroughly amazed! (I bet that I could have easily sold him another set of rings!!!)

There is a story about DANTE: In his big illusion show, he did the rings "in one" (for you new guys, 'in one' is the performing area defined by a traveler curtain which is closed to permit the setting of 'full stage' with the next 'illusion'. It's usually about 6 to 8' behind the footlights).

Dante did a very fine routine with the rings. He finished to nice applause, handed the rings to an assistant, and spoke to the audience in a somewhat 'confidential' tone. "Up in Chicago, there's a store where you can buy these rings. Across the street is a store where they sell violins. --In either case, you must learn how to play!)

The moral of both stories above is simple: THE PERFORMER IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE PROP!!!

I certainly don't think I'm in the same 'league' with Dante (after all he was DANISH,--like MAGIC DANIEL-- I'm just a Norwegian!!! LOL)

But we both had learned how to PRESENT and PERFORM a trick so that it ENTERTAINED an audience! (and "magic' is NOT INHERENTLY ENTERTAINING.

A 'real' magician, using a prop and/or a secret, performs a trick, and if he knows what he is doing, the audience is entertained. --and DECEIVED, ALSO!

So, 'anecdotal evidence' wont "stand up in a court of law, but it may help here!

DANIEL! As a young man starting out performing, in the 1940s, I had seen several magicians do the rings. The audiences obviously liked the performances, but I was too young and inexperienced to really appreciate them.

When I first saw them, I, of course, didn't know the method. After reading about them in "BLACKSTONES' SECRETS OF MAGIC", I still didn't really appreciate how good they were.

Thirty years later, I was a professional, working mostly school assembly programs, and had matured (well, I thought that that I had matured!). I was visiting Jay Marshall. Jay had just returned from Iowa, where he had bought the estate of a deceased magician. In the station wagon full of props was a 10" set of Merv Taylor rings. I decided that it was time for me to at least TRY to perform them! Jay "allowed" me to buy the rings (at a very reasonable price!)

I was enroute to Virginia and North Carolina to start my fall tour. For about a month, I 'played" with the rings every night. I decided to try a routine with 5 rings (triple, single and k**). I spent another month practicing. I put them in the prop case. About a week later, I had an exceptionally responsive high school audience. I thought, "It's now or never!" I held my breath for a minute and reached for the rings. The audience loved the performance! Within a week, the rings were strong enough that I could have closed the show with them!

I have used them ever since. I did streamline the routine (since about 1977, I do a 3 ring routine). I use them in every show, for Kindergarten through College audiences, and for adult club dates. They have NEVER failed to get laughs and a "big mitt" at the finish. Whenever, I grab the rings from the case, I silently thank Jay, and Karrell Fox who graciously gave me his 3 ring routine.

Once again, and I say this quite humbly, "It's the performer, with the right routine, and the right presentation. Its not the props!"
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
Magic-Daniel
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Wonderful story Dick. Thanks for sharing!

For you that are performing the rings. You don't feel like there isen't really a finish to the effect? I have a hard time coming up with a finish in my head, at least....
kentfgunn
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Funsway,

Pander has two meanings. I wasn't trying to call you a pimp. Think politics not prostitution.

Furst was a grand man to have as a mentor. You're very lucky. I've only seen you perform a few things, on-line that you were kind enough to post. They were snippets, portions of tricks. I have no idea of your performing background.
I suspect our opinions differ quite a bit though. I've read dozens of your posts. You often tout routines you've created. I think you have far greater powers of imagination than me. Your presentation themes vary from the bizarre to the outlandish. The short stories you share are equally multi-threaded and full of . . . wonder.

You carry the tone of a man who considers himself an expert in the field of magic. You often dispense wisdom in copious draughts. I just chose not to drink the kool-aid, on this occasion. I don't think you should pick tricks where the audience knows how they're done. If you're going out there as a magician, I believe a significant part of what you do should leave them with a sense of wonder; a sense of wonder that comes from doing things they cannot completely understand. Your opinion differs, bully! Continue on performing exactly as you choose, I shall.

I never meant to decry the classics. I am all about performing them. The cups and balls closes every single show I'm priviliged to perform. I've never made any appreciable portion of my income as a magical performer. Your ten thousand performance easily trumps the number of paid events I've performed for. (A measly three years at a restaurant in Central Florida, coupled with a year or two behind the counter of some magic shops is all I've got.)

For most of my life magic is something I do for friends and family. I have busked in bars, to hustle drinks all over the world though. Ah, the joys of being a penniless sailor. I did learn some things though.

These are lessons that apply to me. I'm not trying to extend them to anyone else.

1. Only tricks I've practiced and rehearsed hundreds of time can be performed. If it isn't as strong a piece of magic as I can do, I don't do it. This necessitates having very few tricks I can do.

2. Without a huge dose of myself in each and every trick I do, I am not effective as an entertainer. Although I perform many tricks that began with someone else, I try to mold (could be moldy, by the time I'm done), the effect so I think I'm doing as well as I can.

3. I believe magic can and often does confuse people. I try very hard to ensure I'm perceived as a magician. If I were to perform tricks my audience knew the workings of, I don't believe I'd be entertaining them as a magician. See earlier clown reference. I love clowns, by the way. Hung out with some trained by Ringling Bros. Their mileu greatly exceeds ours, in terms of historical value and long established schools. If you're performing tricks you realize the audience knows exactly how they work, I think you're looking down on your audience and not giving them what they came to see . . . a magical and partially inexplicable series of events.

Mr. Oslund,

I'm pretty sure I've heard you were a sailor, long ago and far away. Some story about a cigar box and never having to cash a paycheck. I too did shows as a sailor. I think I stuck out the navy a little longer than you. You undoubtedly made the right choice in getting out when you did. We'd have had 16 less years with you spreading the magic. Thank your for your joyous post. I loved the vignette about how you got the rings into the act.

To you both, I perform mostly for magicians these days. So as not to be perceived as a clown I try my best to fool even the magicians in the crowd. My favorite example follows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEYmGnK4K9g

Dick, If there are any clips of you performing I would love to see one.

Thank you both,

KG
Dick Oslund
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Tusen tuk! --for your kind words! (I hope I spelled that right!)

You are 300% correct!!! THERE 'AINT' NO 'BUILT IN' FINISH!!!

--That is why the rings need a performer who can -- with SHOWMANSHIP -- 'make' a finish!

[At this date, I can't remember how I finished my first (5 ring)routine in the early '70s!]

I have limited busking experience, but after 35 + years of doing Karrell Fpx's routine, if I were to hit the streets, I would DEFINITELY use the rings. (Visual effect, visible props, versatile effect, angle proof, no set up, no table needed, recognizable props, packs small, plays big, and spot adaptable--plus WIND PROOF!) The routine averages about 3 minutes, with laughs, applause in the 'middle' and big applause at the end.

Not only the above, but you can also use the rings in a thumb tie routine (not in the same show) I love it when a prop can 'double'!

It would take me all day (!!!) to write up Karrell's routine (simple as it is). So, to suggest a routine that is just as effective as Karrell's (maybe even better!!!) I recommend Whit (Pop) HAYDN'S 4 RING ROUTINE. I'm sure that you can PM Pop Haydn)

I've never met Whit, but I have his hand written routine that he worked out in Hersy Basham's living room, about 35+ years ago in Roanoke, Virginia. Hersy gave it to me shortly before he died. It involves a girl/lady spectator and she becomes the 'star' of the routine!

I saw "Brother John" present it in a Renaissance Fair in Bloomington, Minnesota, about 20 years ago. He 'killed' with it!
If Karrell had not graciously given me his routine, I would have learned Whit's.

Along with the criteria above, Whit's routine also meets my basic concept of "what constitutes a GOOD MAGIC EFFECT (or entire show)" .

For the "record", I need to introduce that concept with another story>>>>>

A couple thousand years ago, a Greek, philosopher/scientist, ARCHIMEDES(I'm sure you remember ARCHY!)was working at his computer, when he "discovered" the principle of the FULCRUM & LEVER. In a fit of ecstasy, he dashed out into the public square and shouted, "DOS MOI POU STO -- KAI TAN GAN KINESO!". Everyone in the square cried, "OOOOOH!"

Since many magicians don't speak Greek, I will translate>>>>"Give me a place to stand -- and I will move the world!".

I "stole" an ACRONYM from a Boy Scout leaders training course (years ago)! The acronym is: K I S M I F.

It stands for Keep It Simple Make It Fun! K I S M I F is 'our' FULCRUM & LEVER. If we keep our effects SIMPLE, and make the performance FUN, there is a very good chance that we will be successful magicians, able to 'move' our audiences because those audiences will be able to relax and laugh WITH us.

Go write "KIS MIF" on your living room wall 100 TIMES!!!

In the circus, at this point, we would be hearing: "The Flag is up!" (time for lunch) Write and let me know how the rings work out for you!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
Dick Oslund
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Kent:::
First! My father was MR. Oslund! I'm Dick!

Second! Your 'pitch' routine with the Cs&Bs is DELIGHTFUL! --and I bet, also very effective in making the cash register ring! It definitely is a fine example of KISMIF!!!

Third! I'm very happy that you came back with a longer presentation of your philosophy. I'm sure that we both realize how difficult it can be to communicate with the old "ten word telegram". I think that we have a lot in common when it comes to our ideas on performing.

Fooling magicians! Well, I've never consciously tried to do that, but I have been 'amazed' many times when I have a magician visiting my school show! --And, they come backstage (when there is a backstage!)and they tell me that I've blown them away, with what I consider a very standard and old technique! Of course, that's great for my ego!

I specifically remember a Thanksgiving Day party in the 'Jay Marshall Auditorium' at Magic Inc. (Fran always had an 'orphans' and waifs' party for show folks who were in town, and were facing a Thanksgiving Dinner in a hotel!)

Naturally at a magicians' party, a show got cobbled together on the spur of the moment. We all did our 'party piece'! (with plenty of 'inside gags'!). I did my 20th Century Silk routine. To vanish the 18" silk, I use the ancient Burling Hull TT bit with the scrap of silk in the TT. At that time in the early '70s, "everybody" was using a Vernet to "disappear" (I know, 'disappear' is an intransitive verb!)a 6" silk (wow?) After the show, several young fellows came up and said they were blown away by the vanish of the 18" silk. I didn't tip it.

Too many of the "kids" (some are way past teenagers) only know what they've bought in the shop. It's the old Navy story. I'm sure you remember. The ship is heading out to sea, and a new young sailor is leaning on the rail, standing next to an old sea dog. The young guy says, "Man! there's a lot of water out there!" The old timer comes back with, "Well, kid, what you see is only the top of it!" Today, it's an "instant gratification" thing. Too many of the "First of Mays" don't (or wont) read.

I have a very few VHS tapes of the show. They were shot by friends visiting. They did their best, but it's very seldom that a school show magician has optimum conditions in which to perform. Poor lighting, stages crowded with 'stored equipment, horrible acoustics, ETC. I appreciated my friends efforts. They gave me an opportunity to observe the show objectively--and often correct "things", but they aren't studio quality!

I'm in the process of writing up "my life on the road" because Jon Racherbaumer threatens to forget that he knows me, if I don't. I asked him, "Who would want to read about me? I definitely am not famous." He said that a lot of magicians would like to "...run away and join the circus!", but, it's an impossibility for various reasons. He says that I can offer them a "vicarious experience"!

Egad! VICARIOUS!!! Well, I'm doing my best!

I'm retired on the 'other gulf coast' (the Great Lakes--Upper Michigan). I'm somewhat out of the loop these days.

I've very much enjoyed getting acquainted...hope I didn't hijack Daniel's thread too much.

Yr's, 'til we make port!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
CJRichard
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Pop Haydn's latest video of the FOUR RING ROUTINE stops before it gets to his ending. The earlier one with "Laura" from the audience did. The one I linked ends with the spectator leaving the stage.

In the old video, it countinued with Pop alone linking to make a chain of four, then four rings interlinked together and finally three rings hanging on the K**, "which is impossible. . ." he says. Pop counts off "ring one and ring two" and hangs them on his left arm leaving him with two linked rings which he SEEMS not to be able to unlink. (Some in the the audience may assume that is the linked pair the spectator had held.) With a twinkle in his eye, Pop then unlinks that final pair. It's a perfect ending for his character because is seems as though he got "caught." But he magically resolves it.
"You know some of you are laughin', but there's people here tryin' to learn. . ." -Pop Haydn

"I know of no other art that proclaims itself 'easy to do.'" -Master Payne

Ezekiel the Green
Magic-Daniel
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Anyone doing the rings for strolling close-up work?
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