Thank you Tom, Paddy and Curtis. You guys get it.

The advice of the distinguished professionals has given me a lot to think about. If I did something that has a "98% chance of failure" and "almost no chance to make this work" maybe I have real super human powers?! I think I'll call myself "Sub-Amatuer Man: Able to book several shows with a single myspace account!!".

Actually, I need to edit my post all the typos! Lol iPhone!

You know I was re reading the original post and while you may have gotten your $40 and beers as a magician why on earth would I want to be a concert promoter.

if my goal is to perform on more stages and get more gigs then as mentioned there are many many better ways to go.

for example- there are many revue type shows that are always looking for acts. usually the pay is a cut of the ticket sales. but at least now all you need to do is show up and perform. some one else is doing the promoting. and you get paid. maybe $40 maybe more.

what you are really talking about here is 4 walling which is doing everything yourself to get booked. being the promoter, ticket sales, theatre rental etc etc. most magicians are not good business people.

end result here is that my goal as a magician is to make money and get more gigs, thus making more money.
I don't have time to promote other people bands or magicians. I promote myself 24/7 that is my full time job. and that is why I work full time.

one other thought is if you want to try to find a theatre that is looking for more acts. get in there and get involved maybe offering to perform one night a week as part of the line up of talent they have thru the week. the key here is sell yourself and your show to others and let them promote the show.
and you focus on providing a spectacular show.

if you are happy with all the work you must be doing for $40 and a few beers and can pay your bills from that -- great!

but I don't want to work that hard!

good luck to you.

sam

Thank you Sam for your helpful post. All kidding aside the responses I've gotten here have made me think about my opportunities and that has been wonderful.

All I can say is that my time promoting was the best time of my life. Having the beach for a backyard and a drug dealer for a roommate then was nice too (I got 5+ years clean now). It was not glamorous though. The free beer I got tasted like sweaty socks because the bar owner never cleaned the lines.

I was thinking about when I booked this band called Death Valley. The kids did a good job so after their set I said "It's not much but put this in your gas tank" and handed them like 30 dollars. He refused the money and I took a step closer and said "Take the F money" and shoved it into his hand. They loaded their equipment and he came back and said he had another band called Zsa Zsa Gabor. I booked them and it was the first time I had ever heard Noise music. He rocked the house for 20 minutes packed up and left. Everyone was freaking out including the owner saying "Why did he leave? Everyone was into it!". I'm still friends with Sam today and asked him to donate a song for my public access show and he recorded a personalized song for me for free.

I guess I should have posted this in the newbie area or maybe not even at all. Just wanted to be helpful and maybe get some traffic to my website (which I did).

Yea people who fall for your line of bs get it LOL.

Though I don't think Curtis does.

A thirsty man wanting a beer should get out and work for it.
And if you can get paid 40 dollars to drink it, I say you did alright.

Mormo, Congratulations on staying clean, stay that way and you will have a much better.


Tom

This has been a very entertaining topic. Thanks for the laugh guys, this should be moved to the "now that's funny" section.
I love the clash of the stereotypes.

Tom - Is that how you got paid for your business dealings? It is one thing to live and let live, but in a forum on running a business this is hardly sound advice. I do second your thoughts on staying clean.

Which was the point of the original responses in the first place.

Of course I don't do business like that. I didn't say I did. Did I? But this is not about how "I" do business. Mormo was only sharing how "HE" did a show. He himself said it wasn't the best and wasn't for everybody.

And since when did the Tricky Business section become "For Professionals Only"?

If you can't look at his picture and see he is not the type to do a professional show for the same clients you do, then you have a serious problem. Don't you think?

While I completely disagree with Mormo about doing shows for beers, I do respect his willingness for sharing his idea. Many times a local performer will do things different than the professional traveling all over the world.

Let's just say, we all can't (or either don't want to) be like Danny and Mindpro.


Tom

Come on Tom, once again for some reason sticking up for the underdog or wanna-be offering advice for which others could greatly get burned. This is a section for the business side of the industry. Business for most people means profit.

When you use terms like "Concert Promoter", "to get stage shows", "a cut of the alcohol sales" and so on your are not only talking about business for yourself but are approaching a venue with this as a business opportunity. You are involved in "business" and a business transaction. In this case terrible business. So you can defend his approach and it seems several here are justifying it as log as he's satisfied making only $40 and a few beers, but this isn't the perception of what most people would consider "business", and most of all the perception of what readers here would get hearing terms such as these. The point is simply, he presented himself as someone offering business advice. I and others responded saying that this was poor advice, terribly risky, and it's apparent he has no true knowledge of what he's talking about when he uses terms like "concert promoter" or producing a show.

While he may have been content with this minimal arrangement, I still content anyone that tried this would:

A. risk and more than likely be out a good deal of money
b. create a poor reputation of themselves
c. create a bad taste in the mouth of the venue
d. more than likely create a bad image of those bands affiliated with the show
e. could set himself up for possible lawsuits in the event of an injury or something happening
f. in the eyes of the venue the "unsuccess" would overshadow the performance ability of the magician and his performance

...I could go on an on. True "Concert Promoters" would be terribly offended by this as well.

Remember he didn't say "hey I've got a great way for you to try to create a show at an area bar, that while you may not make any money, it could be fun and score you a few beers". He came on the business section here dispensing perceived business advice claiming or implying experience and success.

In reality he obviously did it for personal gain - to show us all his handsome picture, to try to get people to his site, and so on. He should have just said "hey I've got this new site, check it out".

Just like in previous posts where a member comes on offering advice that if others would follow could lead to problems, loss, lawsuits and/or arrest this needs to be identified and some of the bigger picture facts presented.

Tom maybe you spend too much time around little innocent kids. They are cute and lovely and show a great deal of promise. However for many teens and young adults in today's world and in the electronic information age, they very seriously lack common sense. The world in which they lives believes what they see on youtube, what the read on the Internet, forums, and what someone they don't know claims they know of was a success. By stating the bigger picture backed by some facts and actual real-world experience - if it can save or prevent one person here from losing money, the family house or a lawsuit, then it is worth the effort. Even if that doesn't happen at least some with experience have offrred some valuable advice to others here.

"And since when did the Tricky Business section become "For Professionals Only"?"

What do you think members come here to the "business section" or amateur and unprofessional advice?

Mindpro,

Do you really think everybody that reads this topic is going to be brainwashed into doing 40 dollar shows while drinking free beer? That it will kill your business if they do?

It really upsets you to see me trying to be kind to someone. Doesn't it? Just because I find something nice to say to somebody doesn't mean I agree with everything they say. Yet you always attack me for doing it. Never could figure that out.

Mindpro, maybe you should spend a little more time with the kids. It seems you really have forgotten everything you learned in kindergarten. Look it up. All the major business and success lessons you ever need to know are taught there. How easy we forget.


Tom

This reminds me of a story. Allow me to tell it right quick and I will stop. I promise.

Several years ago I went to a high school class reunion. I hadn't been to any of the previous meetings, but this one was special. It was our 30th year.

I enjoyed standing around listening to the boys talk about what all they had accomplished in the past 30 years. Joe had become a lawyer and he told us all about the big cases he had won. Johnny went to some big name college and became an engineer. He now lived in New York and played an important part in building several of the skyscrapers there. Ben had finished medicine school and become a doctor, he too had many exciting stories to tell.

As enjoyable as the stories were, you can only take so much bragging before it gets boring. lol

Finally after an hour or two, one of them got around to asking me what I did for a living. By this time it was time to go so I kept my story short with: "I own a preschool, there we shape doctors, lawyers, and engineers."


Tom

Shape them yow? With blather and bs? But yea you have been spending too kuch time trying to shape the minds of those with a load in their pants.

But let me ask this Tom. You are obviously quite good at what you do with the pre school dealio. So along comes a weekend babysitter who does it for extra money. Not only that but does it in a way that will not work and will be detrimental to the industry. Then there are other weekend babysitters encouraging them to be outright stupid.

How happy are you about this turn of events?

Now give me some blather and bs about how it is all ok with you. If that is true it would be shocking.

Danny,

There is more competition in the childcare business than any other industry. That is a fact.
Open a phone book and count the childcare services.

Parents could just keep them at home.
Babysitters are much cheaper.
Home daycares are everywhere.
You see Nanny ads everywhere.
Small daycare centers open and close all the time.

Now add to that, all the stories you hear about child abuse, and you wonder how parents could ever trust other people with their children. Still, I've made millions of dollars in this business.

Over the years I learned that I can't control what others do. But I can control what I do. I can treat every person I meet with respect, including the competition. I can't force people to do anything, but I can set an example for them to follow.

Before my daycare years, 17 years ago, I owned several other business. Everything from a comic book shop to a Piggly Wiggly. Some were failures others were big successes. I think the biggest lesson I learned from all of my years in business is, the biggest competition was not the other guys. Instead, it was myself.

You are your own biggest competition. Just focus on becoming better than you were before on a continuous basis and in time, you will become a winner. Life is like a horse race, you can't lose valuable time trying to trip up the other horses. You remain in your lane, wish them well, and then it's full speed ahead.

No BS, just the fact. Winners don't worry so much about others. They are in control of themselves and that's all that really matters.

Now, you can give me your bs about how magic is different. But I won't buy it because I have been in that business too.


Tom

You never answered me. Just your usual bs.

This is not about competition. If that is what you think you need to go to a comprehension class.

This is about people making mistakes and you sitting by and watching under some delusion you are helping. Better yet you encouraging them.

But keep ducking the question I alrwady know your line of bs.

Do you encourage kids in daycare to be dumb and do dumb things just because it might be ok? If so I doubt you would be as successful as you are

So why then encourage others down pretty dumb paths? Is it helping?

No not everyone needs to do the same. What a boring world we would live in. But encouraging new people to be less than productive first club off the tee helps nobody.

What one does or doesn't do affects me in no way. Not at all. Other acts do what they will and it is fine. But don't get the idea that you are helping anyone by encouraging bad ideas. No more than it helps kids to encourage eating paste.

See this is my exact thought too. Although you don't come right out and say "you are right" to these original posters, by saying things like Tom and others have, they encourage these people and these perspectives that to begin with that are not right or plausible. You can always tell this because a few posts after Tom or others say something "encouraging" they (the OP) always come back and post something to the effect of "thanks for your support", "I'm glad you get it", or in this actual case the OP's response was "Thank you Tom, Paddy and Curtis. You guys get it."

Do you see the problem here? Of all that is posted to correct them or explain how this is poor, bad, wrong or incorrect, all they see or hear is the "Thank you Tom, Paddy and Curtis. You guys get it." Tom of anyone should know this, it's just like your preschool kids in development, they are seeking any kind of approval or backing they can get. This encourages them down this mislead path. It wasn't until just this last page and post that Tom finally stated "While I completely disagree with Mormo about doing shows for beers" that Tom stated his disagreement in his methods. But that's not what he or others in these situations hear.

They hear the "kindness" Tom and others offers, and misperceives it as support. To me this is where it is wrong. Although I didn't always like it at the time, and may not have understood it, I really appreciated it when my mentors or superiors called me out or stopped me in my tracks when I was doing something wrong or headed down a bad path. That encouraged me and actually helped me more than the "kindness" of others who really see the poor path I'm headed, but said nothing but "a kind word of encouragement".

It's a shame that when someone with knowledge or experience is lamblasted here for taking the time to call them out, and then even on top of that explain why. Sometimes it may get a bit harsh but that is almost always due to the lack of respect of the offender and their cockiness or arrogance towards the answers they don't want to hear.

So to me this nicey, nicey false support damages them more than helps. It makes them not see the errors or problems in their perceptions. Instead it fuels them to go to others and in this case another forum claiming that some here supported them so Danny & I must be wrong, don't know what we're talking about, blah, blah, blah. Explain to me how this helps them in any way? It just contributes to their delusion.

Mindpro if you were trying to discourage me from posting in the Tricky Business area you succeeded. I won't start another thread here.

Think I should just call up my competition and say, "hey I don't like the way you doing business and you better stop it?" I'm sure they would tell me quick to mind my own business. How they run their business has nothing to do with my business.

It takes a lot of "TRUST" for a parent to leave their 6 month old infant with you every day of the week. That my friend is how you succeed in business. ANY BUSINESS. If you can get people to TRUST you, you can have success with any business. That's what business is all about, winning trust. Without trust you are nothing.

Same thing applies to the competition. If you want them to listen to what you have to say. If you want them to work with you, and not against you. Guess what you have to do? It's certainly not beating them over the head. That doesn't work in the real world.

Back to the magic. There are very few working magicians in the world. Magicians have no competition. Most don't know what competition is. And honestly, if you are afraid someone doing shows for a few beers is going to hurt you. Then all I can say is you don't have much confidence in yourself. Shame on you for making such a comparison.

We that do 'Get It" understand that the OP wasn't asking for help. He was simply trying to help. He didn't deserve anything but kindness.

I personally hope one day he writes a book.

"From six beers a gig to six hundred dollars a gig in sixty day."


Mormo, all kidding aside, I do wish you nothing but the very best with the magic.
Don't let a few run you off. There really are some great helpers here. Look past
the ego's and you can find some useful information.

Tom

Once again Tom you are completely missing my point. I have no concern for this kid as competition for me. It's never been about that or for heaven sakes confidence (where do you come up with this stuff?), and surely not about comparison. It is about offering sound advice and presenting unknowing others form making mistakes and setting themselves up for problems or failure.

Everyone knows that he Café is filled with young, impressionable "I-want-it-now-and-am-willing-to-try-shortcuts" members, kiddie and adults. As a veteran performer I feel it's important to set people on the proper path and prevent unnecessary mistakes whenever possible. It's also well known and documented that magicians are more concerned with their performance and tricks than being well-executed business people. Most do not like or do well with the business side of being an entertainer, so the last thing they need is poor advice.