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Woland
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Here. What it took for one family to live free.
Dennis Michael
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Freedom is not FREE
Dennis Michael
Woland
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Never is, and never was.
silvercup
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Mine is.
General_Magician
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Quote:
On 2013-05-08 07:26, Dennis Michael wrote:
Freedom is not FREE


I sometimes wish they would bring back the draft and make the burdens of national defense a little more equitable. That way we wouldn't be having guys doing 14 combat tours (he and his 14 combat tours, his first one starting in 2001 was talked about on CNN after he was KIA in Afghanistan, which honestly I don't think anybody should have to do that many combat tours or even be allowed to, just one of those tours will take a toll on the mind if you are lucky enough to get back in one piece and alive). I guess that's a pipe dream short of World War III or a massive foreign invasion of the United States. But I think sharing the burdens of national defense would make people appreciate more what they have and also make them more responsible citizens.

Even though the rich protesting the war might have dodged the draft back in the days of Vietnam (as the rich most of the time avoid military service or being drafted preferring to rely on the less fortunate to do the fighting and dying for them), at least the burden was a little more spread out even though the draft was not enforced in an equitable manner. Most people enjoy freedom but don't want to have to pay the price for it, preferring to rely on somebody else to pay the price for them. People want something for nothing. But they also don't understand or appreciate what they have either because they never had to pay for it themselves.

I remember talking to my family and friends about one guy in my unit at the time having 6 combat tours and my first tour was going to be his 7th (I was scared at the time going on my first tour, but that was before I got my feet wet and for this guy, it was just another tour and par for the course). People couldn't believe it. He was a great soldier and I learned as much as I could from him before and during my deployment. Much of what he had to say was true and correct and did not always go with the conventional wisdom of the time.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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Dannydoyle
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Yep don't take volunteers SEND THE POOR to fight for the rich!

It would end up being very badly done.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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Unfortunately, even now, it is still the poor fighting for the rich. How about the rich fight their own wars for a change?
Dannydoyle
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Well it is volunteer there is no way to deny that. Many wealthy families have people in the service and are *** proud of it.

But a better approach might be fewer wars in the first place? Just spitballing here.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
General_Magician
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Quote:
On 2013-05-08 15:36, Dannydoyle wrote:
Well it is volunteer there is no way to deny that. Many wealthy families have people in the service and are *** proud of it.

But a better approach might be fewer wars in the first place? Just spitballing here.


I don't know of any rich folks that served in my unit (their very well could be some rich people that serve or have served but to my knowledge and experience, in my unit, I didn't know of any members from rich families serving). The only rich people I ever met was when I was hired by them for entertainment. I felt I walked into a different world and they knew I wasn't a member of their class and I knew it too. The rich tend to "stick to their own" and the less fortunate are generally the hired help. I did the job I was hired to do and then it was time for me to leave. The rich know if you are a member of their class or not and they also tend to be very well educated and observant.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2013-05-08 15:36, Dannydoyle wrote:
Well it is volunteer there is no way to deny that. Many wealthy families have people in the service and are *** proud of it.

But a better approach might be fewer wars in the first place? Just spitballing here.


I think that bringing back the draft would actually result in fewer wars. The anti-war movement during Vietnam was fueled significantly by the fact that kids were being drafted.

If there was a draft in place during the Iraq war I think there would have been a much greater public outcry against it.
Dannydoyle
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Yea war is a tough subject. It really is. Nobody ever wins a war in my view.

WITH the possible exception of the Conch Republic.

To sum it up the border patrol set up roadblocks out of the Keys in Florida. One road in and out and a 4 hour line was going to KILL tourism. PLUS it only managed to net 2 offenders. One German and a French guy who lost their passports. (Though a suspicious amount of mariguana was found along the road LOL.) City Council's complaints went unanswered by the federal government and attempts to get an injunction against the roadblock failed in court, as a form of protest Mayor Dennis Wardlow and the Council declared Key West's independence on April 23, 1982. They seceded from the Union. In the eyes of the Council, since the federal government had set up the equivalent of a border station as if they were a foreign nation, they might as well become one. As many of the local citizens were referred to as Conchs, the nation took the name of the Conch Republic.

As part of the protest, Mayor Wardlow was proclaimed Prime Minister of the Republic, which immediately declared war against the U.S. (symbolically breaking a loaf of stale Cuban bread over the head of a man dressed in a naval uniform), quickly surrendered after one minute (to the man in the uniform), and applied for one billion dollars in foreign aid. (Day old Cuban bread can cause a concussion!)

Conch Republic officials were invited to the Summit of the Americas in Miami in 1994, and Conch representatives were officially invited to 1995's Florida Jubilee.

The mock secession and the events surrounding it generated great publicity for the Keys' plight — the roadblock and inspection station were removed soon afterward. It also resulted in the creation of a new avenue of tourism for the Keys.

It is a great party every year!

I have a rebel flag in my garage in Branson. Not the one you might expect. A Conch Republic flag. We lived there for 3 years. Passports and all.

"We Seceded Where Others Failed" (The mitigation of world tension through the exersise of humor.) Lots to learn there.

Look it up. I am sure it is on Google. Truly the only war I ever supported. (Except Star Wars.)
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Woland
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I don't know how we got onto the draft. This video is about a family that fled the draft, fled their government, fled the control of the State, to live free, according to their lights, in an hostile wilderness.
tommy
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So they switched from one form of hostile wilderness to another. If you are going run away, then run away to somewhere warm.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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General_Magician
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Quote:
mastermindreader wrote:

I think that bringing back the draft would actually result in fewer wars. The anti-war movement during Vietnam was fueled significantly by the fact that kids were being drafted.

If there was a draft in place during the Iraq war I think there would have been a much greater public outcry against it.


I agree and I think could help create more responsible citizens who have an appreciation for what they have. It would also insure that war is an absolute last resort option. It should never be a first resort option or haphazardly decided upon.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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Payne
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Quote:
On 2013-05-08 20:23, Woland wrote:
I don't know how we got onto the draft. This video is about a family that fled the draft, fled their government, fled the control of the State, to live free, according to their lights, in an hostile wilderness.


So what is your opinion on the draft dodgers who fled to Canada during the Vietnam debacle? Or folks who used money or political power to avoid serving? Are they "Living Free" as well?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
tommy
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Is it warm in Canada?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2013-05-09 13:42, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-05-08 20:23, Woland wrote:
I don't know how we got onto the draft. This video is about a family that fled the draft, fled their government, fled the control of the State, to live free, according to their lights, in an hostile wilderness.


So what is your opinion on the draft dodgers who fled to Canada during the Vietnam debacle? Or folks who used money or political power to avoid serving? Are they "Living Free" as well?


Many fine citizens who put down roots, built careers, raised families and are now part of the backbone of our fine country.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
tommy
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Will these fine citizens run back across the border if your fine country goes to war with Vietnam?

Wouldn't happen to be Italians would they?

:)
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Payne
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Quote:
On 2013-05-09 13:52, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:

Many fine citizens who put down roots, built careers, raised families and are now part of the backbone of our fine country.



I'm sure they are. I might very well had been one of them as well if the war hadn't wrapped up when it did. I was one of the lucky ones who was just the right age to sneak through the gap that was between the end of the draft and the start of the selective service. But had the war not ended and my number had come up I had several strategies to get out of military service. Moving to Canada was one of them.

I just have a sneaking suspicion that Woland doesn't see American Draft Dodgers in the same regard as their Russian counterparts. But I could be wrong.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
General_Magician
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Draft dodgers are cowards and have never been "good upstanding citizens." I am sure if Canada ever goes to war, those same people who fled the US during the Vietnam War, will turn their backs on Canada just as quickly as they turned their backs on America. Canada can have them and keep them. They are unreliable and only think of themselves. Reality is, with citizenship comes responsibility, loyalty and that might very well mean having to serve during a time of war because you are drafted.

The only reason why Canada benefits from them is the tax revenue they might provide to Canada, but anybody can earn a paycheck and pay taxes and they will flee Canada like the disloyal cowards they are if Canada ever decides it needs to go to war. Draft dodgers have no honor. The draft dodgers only pay taxes because their is no place that is reasonably stable to flee to that doesn't require taxes and all governments compel people to pay taxes.

Draft dodgers only think of themselves and are worthless despite any taxes they might pay, only think of themselves and simply only want the benefits that come with the citizenship of a country but don't want the responsibility that comes with it (which means you could be required to serve during a time of war). Canada can keep them and I am sure the Canadians will use them for the tax revenue and are probably aware these draft dodgers will quickly turn their backs on them just as they did to America.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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