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Ray Tupper.
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Some people like wars,other people don't.
To attach labels of cowardice and heroism without knowledge
of personal ethics is at best naïve.
It takes bollox to be a conchey.
What do we want?
A cure for tourettes!
When do we want it?
C*nt!
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2013-05-09 16:34, General_Magician wrote:
Reality is, with citizenship comes responsibility


Responsibility to the USA, to South Vietnam, or is it all the same?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2013-05-09 17:24, Ray Tupper. wrote:
Some people like wars,other people don't.
To attach labels of cowardice and heroism without knowledge
of personal ethics is at best naïve.
It takes bollox to be a conchey.


Well said. I enlisted in 1968. Many of the guys I graduated from high school with were killed in Vietnam. And many of my friends chose to avoid the draft. Not because they were cowards, but because they had serious objections to the war- as most Americans eventually did.
tommy
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Some love war but hate to fight. For those that know.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
General_Magician
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Quote:
Some people like wars,other people don't.
To attach labels of cowardice and heroism without knowledge
of personal ethics is at best naïve.
It takes bollox to be a conchey.


Anybody who likes war hasn't been to war. However, sometimes you do have to fight. It should be the absolute last resort option though.

Quote:
Responsibility to the USA, to South Vietnam, or is it all the same?


Responsibility to the US of course. I assume you are resorting to your legal skills that comes with arguing a case before a court in this debate and such a question is a little bit misrepresenting my position on the issue. The US, like any country, has and needs allies and South Vietnam was an American ally. So it was logical for the US to send troops to support an ally (like any government does). This doesn't necessarily equate to responsibility to South Vietnam though as you well already know just because a soldier is serving his nation and his nation orders him to combat in support of that said nation's ally. North Vietnam was a communist dictatorship and certainly were not the "good guys." They also exploited and manipulated the anti-war movement in the US. The North Vietnamese general Giap thanked the anti-war movement in the US for providing "aid and comfort" to his troops. I think Jane Fonda, providing aid and comfort to the enemy, is the perfect representation of the American anti-war movement at the time. A movement, which provided aid and comfort to an enemy of the US which was also a ruthless dictatorship with no regard for human rights, political freedom or economic freedom.

So, thanks partly to the anti-war movement in the US during the Vietnam War, what did some of my Vietnamese friends here in the US tell me what they thought of Vietnam's current situation today under the communist dictatorship that won the war? They certainly don't like the communist dictatorship that is currently controlling Vietnam today AND they certainly don't enjoy a lot of political freedoms in Vietnam that we enjoy in America today. I am certain the South Koreans enjoy much more poltical and economic freedom than North Korea and I am sure, had the US successfully stopped North Vietnam from gobbling up South Vietnam, a hypothetical South Vietnam today would much like a South Korea is today.

Seems like the wrong side won the war (thanks partly to the anti-war movement in the US who were not only selfish, but also manipulated, exploited and conned by the communists) and in fact the current government in power in Vietnam are on the wrong side of history still today. Now, one may argue that South Vietnam (and I am sure the South Korean government wasn't exactly perfect either shortly after the end of the Korean War) was a corrupt government and I have no doubt it was, but it was the only viable option the US had to support as an ally against communist expansion during that point in the Cold War at the time (and I don't know of any communist governments that were shining beacons of democracy, political freedom and economic freedom that had or ever has existed).

Would you want to live under a communist government Lobo? I certainly wouldn't and I am sure, given an honest free choice with all the pros, cons and facts before them, the Vietnamese wouldn't either. But that's what they got. Fortunately, despite losing the Vietnam War, we won the Cold War regardless but the anti-war movement during the Vietnam War in the US certainly did not help in the cause of freedom during the Cold War and in my opinion, actually worked against the cause of freedom. But fortunately, we still won the Cold War regardless. Unfortunately for the Vietnamese though, they were left behind in enjoying the fruits of our victory in the Cold War (thanks partly to the anti-war movement in the US) and still live under a communist dictatorship while most of the world has moved on to live under democratic governments that have economic and political freedoms.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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mastermindreader
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Seems like the wrong side won the war (thanks partly to the anti-war movement in the US who were not only selfish, but also manipulated, exploited and conned by the communists)...


What??? After I got out, and after two years of encrypting intelligence from Vietnam, I was happy to join the anti-war movement. The war was a civil war and the regime we supported was definitely NOT a popular one.

The Vietnam war was one of the biggest foreign policy mistakes this country ever made.

And, BTW,today's Vietnam is hardly the communist horror that you seem to be imagining:

Quote:
In 1986, the government initiated a series of economic and political reforms, which began Vietnam's path towards integration into the world economy. By 2000, it had established diplomatic relations with most nations. Vietnam's economic growth has been among the highest in the world since 2000 ...
Vietnam is now one of Asia's most open economies: two-way trade was valued at around 160% of GDP in 2006, more than twice the contemporary ratio for China and over four times the ratio for India.[98] Vietnam's chief trading partners include China, Japan, Australia, the ASEAN countries, the United States and Western Europe. In 2011, Vietnam's total international trade, including both exports and imports, was valued at approximately $200 billion...

Vietnam has become a major tourist destination since the 1990s, assisted by significant state and private investment, particularly in coastal regions.[151] About 3.77 million international tourists visited Vietnam in 2009 alone.[152]

Popular destinations include Hanoi, Saigon, the former imperial capital of Hué, the World Heritage Sites of Hoi An and Mỹ Sơn, coastal regions such as Nha Trang, the caves of Ha Long Bay and the Marble Mountains. Numerous tourist projects are under construction, such as the Binh Duong tourist complex, which possesses the largest artificial sea in Southeast Asia.[153]

On February 14, 2011, Joe Jackson, the father of American pop star Michael Jackson, attended a ground breaking ceremony for what will be Southeast Asia's largest entertainment complex, a five-star hotel and amusement park called Happyland. The US$2 billion project, which has been designed to accommodate 14 million tourists annually, is located in southern Long An province, near Ho Chi Minh City. It is expected that the complex will be completed in 2014.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viet_Nam#Tourism
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2013-05-09 18:05, General_Magician wrote:
Quote:
Some people like wars,other people don't.
To attach labels of cowardice and heroism without knowledge
of personal ethics is at best naïve.
It takes bollox to be a conchey.


Anybody who likes war hasn't been to war. However, sometimes you do have to fight. It should be the absolute last resort option though.

Quote:
Responsibility to the USA, to South Vietnam, or is it all the same?


Responsibility to the US of course. I assume you are resorting to your legal skills that comes with arguing a case before a court in this debate and such a question is a little bit misrepresenting my position on the issue. The US, like any country, has and needs allies and South Vietnam was an American ally. So it was logical for the US to send troops to support an ally (like any government does). This doesn't necessarily equate to responsibility to South Vietnam though as you well already know just because a soldier is serving his nation and his nation orders him to combat in support of that said nation's ally. North Vietnam was a communist dictatorship and certainly were not the "good guys." They also exploited and manipulated the anti-war movement in the US. The North Vietnamese general Giap thanked the anti-war movement in the US for providing "aid and comfort" to his troops. I think Jane Fonda, providing aid and comfort to the enemy, is the perfect representation of the American anti-war movement at the time. A movement, which provided aid and comfort to an enemy of the US which was also a ruthless dictatorship with no regard for human rights, political freedom or economic freedom.

So, thanks partly to the anti-war movement in the US during the Vietnam War, what did some of my Vietnamese friends here in the US tell me what they thought of Vietnam's current situation today under the communist dictatorship that won the war? They certainly don't like the communist dictatorship that is currently controlling Vietnam today AND they certainly don't enjoy a lot of political freedoms in Vietnam that we enjoy in America today. I am certain the South Koreans enjoy much more poltical and economic freedom than North Korea and I am sure, had the US successfully stopped North Vietnam from gobbling up South Vietnam, a hypothetical South Vietnam today would much like a South Korea is today.

Seems like the wrong side won the war (thanks partly to the anti-war movement in the US who were not only selfish, but also manipulated, exploited and conned by the communists) and in fact the current government in power in Vietnam are on the wrong side of history still today. Now, one may argue that South Vietnam (and I am sure the South Korean government wasn't exactly perfect either shortly after the end of the Korean War) was a corrupt government and I have no doubt it was, but it was the only viable option the US had to support as an ally against communist expansion during that point in the Cold War at the time (and I don't know of any communist governments that were shining beacons of democracy, political freedom and economic freedom that had or ever has existed).

Would you want to live under a communist government Lobo? I certainly wouldn't and I am sure, given an honest free choice with all the pros, cons and facts before them, the Vietnamese wouldn't either. But that's what they got. Fortunately, despite losing the Vietnam War, we won the Cold War regardless but the anti-war movement during the Vietnam War in the US certainly did not help in the cause of freedom during the Cold War and in my opinion, actually worked against the cause of freedom. But fortunately, we still won the Cold War regardless. Unfortunately for the Vietnamese though, they were left behind in enjoying the fruits of our victory in the Cold War (thanks partly to the anti-war movement in the US) and still live under a communist dictatorship while most of the world has moved on to live under democratic governments that have economic and political freedoms.



I am inclined to believe (though I may be wrong) that while citizenship may require involuntary military induction if necessary to defend one's country, it does not require involuntary military induction to defend another country, even if that other country is an ally.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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Quote:
On 2013-05-09 17:46, tommy wrote:
Some love war but hate to fight. For those that know.

Yes, such people are called Presidents, Vice-Presidents, and Members of Congress.
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